daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 25th, 2013, 10:24 PM   #1601
Peloso
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Away from Macaronia
Posts: 1,175
Likes (Received): 247

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
People are ignoring that the driver called to the control, very nervous and before the derailment because the speed of the train was 190km/h.
Source?
__________________
Save Italy, fight the Macaroni
E(xtinction)=m(afia)c(reeps)²
Peloso no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 25th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #1602
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 32,035
Likes (Received): 15481

The driver has been arrested. He´s still in the hospital.
Source: La Vanguardia newspaper.
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2013, 10:58 PM   #1603
OriK
Usuario Registrado
 
OriK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 721
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Source?
Every single newspaper. for example, in El Pais it's in the frontpage:

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/...76_139202.html

Quote:
Uno de los maquinistas del tren Alvia que descarriló ayer en Santiago de Compostela quedó atrapado tras el accidente en la cabina del convoy. A través de la radio con la que se comunica con la estación, cuando aún no sabía siquiera si había fallecidos, hizo un relato de lo que acababa de suceder. Expresó que le dolía la espalda y las costillas y que no podía salir. “¡Somos humanos! ¡Somos humanos!”, repetía. “Espero que no haya muertos porque caerán sobre mi conciencia”. El conductor había dicho previamente, antes del siniestro, que iba muy rápido, a 190 kilómetros por hora; después habló de 200. Finalmente, al entrar en la curva, volvió a decir: "¡Voy a 190!", según explicaron ayer a EL PAÍS fuentes de la investigación.
Translation: The driver had previously said, before the accident, that it was too fast, at 190 km/h; after he said 200. Finally, while entering the curve, he said again: "I'm at 190!" as El País were told yesterday by sources of the investigation.
OriK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #1604
TimeOff
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 37
Likes (Received): 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
The driver has been arrested. He´s still in the hospital.
Source: La Vanguardia newspaper.
TimeOff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2013, 11:35 PM   #1605
xinxingren
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 271
Likes (Received): 72

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
A side note: the commission that is leading the tender process for the 528km-long Brazilian High Speed Line (called TAV-Brasil) announced that Renfe (which entered the tender in a partnership with Adif and Ineco) is going to be excluded from the possibility of bidding for the project, which requires a 10-year long record of no train passenger fatalities on high-speed services for the operator, reason for which the Chinese had also been excluded.
Hmmm, I'd be inclined to include them on a separate subcommittee. Their experience, and the post-accident investigations should add valuable design and operation information. Unfortunately emotion and politics often over-ride engineering.
xinxingren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2013, 11:50 PM   #1606
keber
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 9,881
Likes (Received): 1365

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
Sorry for the convusion, I wasn't refering to you. There were several post assuming that the "lightness" of some cars have something to do with the delailment. But that isn't true.
Sorry I was looking at video of the crash, but because of low reolution I couldn't discern passenger car from diesel unit. Later I saw my mistake.

I hope that this accident will also accelerate unifying signaling systems across Europe as any breaks in signaling system can be very problematic.
keber no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 12:10 AM   #1607
Peloso
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Away from Macaronia
Posts: 1,175
Likes (Received): 247

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
Every single newspaper. for example, in El Pais it's in the frontpage:

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/...76_139202.html
Weird. If it is true, and not some journalist's mishap, what could possibly have prevented the driver from slowing down? A general breakdown of all braking systems? And how does this fit in with same driver's words "If there are victims, they'll weigh on my conscience"? Could he possibly have disabled the brakes or the speed control devices by mistake? Why after the disaster he did not mention any system fault anyway?
__________________
Save Italy, fight the Macaroni
E(xtinction)=m(afia)c(reeps)²

TimeOff liked this post

Last edited by Peloso; July 26th, 2013 at 12:34 AM.
Peloso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 01:20 AM   #1608
ForABetter
Ballin'
 
ForABetter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 35
Likes (Received): 7

That's so sad...there is nothing else to us but pray for their souls.. .
ForABetter no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #1609
Fitzrovian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 607
Likes (Received): 64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
High speed rail, especially in corners, should not give anyone the opportunity to speed. The system in place here allowed him to go 110 kilometers per hour FASTER than the speed allowed... that's a failure of proper HSR implementation.
Heads should role for this amount of negligence, and this train driver should be fired, but to put all the blame on him is ridiculous. It's like telling your kid it's ok to cycle on the edge of a cliff, and then only blaming your kid for being a bad cyclist when he falls in the cliff, and not yourself for letting him cycle there in the first place.
Agree 100%. This was clearly a systemic failure on a monumental scale that goes way beyond any possible negligence of the driver.
Fitzrovian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 02:12 AM   #1610
sacto7654
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 796
Likes (Received): 283

Isn't the speed limit for that very curve around 80 km/h (50 mph)? At the time the train derailed, it was travelling at 190 km/h (118 mph)--way over the speed limit. There's going to be a lot of questions asked on why the train ended up this fast....
sacto7654 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 02:24 AM   #1611
Fitzrovian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 607
Likes (Received): 64

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
You would assume it should have worked the same here.

With a risk analysis this part on the whole track would have stood out like a sore thumb. Therefore it's so incredible to me that it happened right here. The precautions and the focus of the driver should be at its maximum right here you would assume. Accidents normally happen where you don't expect them.
It astounds me that something like this could have happened in a country that is the European leader in high speed rail with a heretofore unblemished safety record in HSR. Shocking. I dont know anything about HSR technology but it is very hard to believe that the system was designed to entrust the driver, without any back-up, with the task of decreasing the speed at this extremely delicate juncture.
__________________

Silly_Walks liked this post
Fitzrovian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 02:52 AM   #1612
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
It astounds me that something like this could have happened in a country that is the European leader in high speed rail with a heretofore unblemished safety record in HSR. Shocking. I dont know anything about HSR technology but it is very hard to believe that the system was designed to entrust the driver, without any back-up, with the task of decreasing the speed at this extremely delicate juncture.
It just shows you that there is no such thing as 100% safe system of anything. Rail accidents of any kind are extremely rare, but they do happen and probably will continue to happen...
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 03:05 AM   #1613
zazo,
Zeit
 
zazo,'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: München
Posts: 535
Likes (Received): 104

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
It astounds me that something like this could have happened in a country that is the European leader in high speed rail with a heretofore unblemished safety record in HSR. Shocking. I dont know anything about HSR technology but it is very hard to believe that the system was designed to entrust the driver, without any back-up, with the task of decreasing the speed at this extremely delicate juncture.
As you can read on the info, this is not actually a full HSL, (which will be finished in 2018 or 2020), the full HSL are Madrid-South, Madrid-France, Madrid-East, Madrid-Valladolid, not a full HSL on the north.
The accident actually happened on a conventional line not prepared for speeds higher than 80 kph without the security system of HSL (because it is not) and inside a city. The train works in some sections as a medium-high-speed train (220kph real) and in other sections as a conventional one with speeds of 120 kph in a travel of 9 hours. The finished HSL where AVE runs are rather different.
__________________
..................................................................................

SAS 16, joinmanzano liked this post
zazo, no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 03:11 AM   #1614
Fitzrovian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 607
Likes (Received): 64

Quote:
Originally Posted by zazo, View Post
As you can read on the info, this is not actually a full HSL, (which will be finished in 2018 or 2020), the full HSL are Madrid-South, Madrid-France, Madrid-East, Madrid-Valladolid, not a full HSL on the north.
The accident actually happened on a conventional line not prepared for speeds higher than 80 kph without the security system of HSL (because it is not) and inside a city. It's easy to understand.
I understand that!!! But don't you think the engineers who designed the HSR portion of the track should have thought about installing some technology to ensure that the train could never enter the conventional track above a certain speed threshold? It is beyond absurd to leave it entirely up to the driver, especially in such a sensitive spot, where the cost of human error is certain to have deadly consequences.

I am sure there is more to this story that we have yet to find out.
__________________

Silly_Walks liked this post
Fitzrovian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 05:05 AM   #1615
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 32,035
Likes (Received): 15481

"We" won´t solve this case until the enquiry ends.
And certainly, WE won´t solve this case. Not you, nor you, nor you will. Nor me.

Until then, thank you for NOT trying to outsmart the enquirers nor applauding any decision taken by the judges, whatever it is.

The case is not closed yet.

SSC will only gain credibility if we don´t have Twitter-like nor Facebook-like posts.

THIS IS NOT THE SKYBAR.
__________________

SAS 16, kevloral, OriK, pietje01, Manamer liked this post
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 06:22 AM   #1616
Fitzrovian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 607
Likes (Received): 64

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
"We" won´t solve this case until the enquiry ends.
And certainly, WE won´t solve this case. Not you, nor you, nor you will. Nor me.

Until then, thank you for NOT trying to outsmart the enquirers nor applauding any decision taken by the judges, whatever it is.

The case is not closed yet.

SSC will only gain credibility if we don´t have Twitter-like nor Facebook-like posts.

THIS IS NOT THE SKYBAR.

I agree.

Does anyone known the distance between the end of the HSR track and the spot of the crash?

Last edited by Fitzrovian; July 26th, 2013 at 06:34 AM.
Fitzrovian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 06:55 AM   #1617
압둘라-爱- LOVE
'대한민국'
 
압둘라-爱- LOVE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 서울,부산,도쿄,오사카,리야드
Posts: 1,234
Likes (Received): 1693



__________________

🆃🅷🅴 🅱🅴🆂🆃
압둘라-爱- LOVE no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 07:40 AM   #1618
skyridgeline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,525
Likes (Received): 1219

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
I understand that!!! But don't you think the engineers who designed the HSR portion of the track should have thought about installing some technology to ensure that the train could never enter the conventional track above a certain speed threshold? It is beyond absurd to leave it entirely up to the driver, especially in such a sensitive spot, where the cost of human error is certain to have deadly consequences.

I am sure there is more to this story that we have yet to find out.
That's what happened. It was a governmental decision to allow 'high speed' trains to run on 'low speed' tracks w/o the ERTMS-compliant signalling system.
skyridgeline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 08:31 AM   #1619
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Can anybody explain all the functions of ASFA? From the wikipedia entry and a Youtube clip I can only make up that it protects against SPADs. For a system that was first implemented in the 70's lack of speed check facilities would seem strange to me. You can still have a massive accident when a 120 km/h train drives over a 40 km/h switch at 90 km/h.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2013, 08:42 AM   #1620
G5man
High Speed Rail fan
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 337
Likes (Received): 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Cooper View Post
Para que os aclareis:

So why was the ERTMS not programmed to have limits before entering the speed restricted curve?
G5man no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
adif, ave, high speed rail, spain in the world, valencia, zaragoza

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium