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Old July 26th, 2013, 08:42 AM   #1621
Ribarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eu01 View Post
Fired? If proven guilty, he'll spend many years in prison and his life is destroyed anyway (with all this conscience nightmare among else).

The legal responsibility of safety system planners and/or providers is a separate issue.
The driver has supposedly said on transmission that he wants to die. The prospect of living with that burden within or outside of the prison wall is.

But until he has had a fair trial it is not fair to judge him yet. The system plays a huge role as well as others have said. The Japanese have a term for that Poka-Yoke where you make sure a system exists that things cannot go wrong. Having a system in place that is mistake proof.

El Pais say the driver was breaking very hard. I guess breaking hard would only inrease the risk of derailment in that sharp corner?

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/...70_915709.html
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:52 AM   #1622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
I agree.

Does anyone known the distance between the end of the HSR track and the spot of the crash?
Signalling wise around 200 m according to posted videos of a track in normal conditions.
Still having ERMTS or not on particular part of the track this is no excuse for driver for not obeying speed limits. He/She must know track layout and speed limits before. Great majority of railway tracks on the world don't have any systems to slow down top the train if it goes over designed speed limit and there are no problems with that.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:07 AM   #1623
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Signalling wise around 200 m according to posted videos of a track in normal conditions.
Still having ERMTS or not on particular part of the track this is no excuse for driver for not obeying speed limits. He/She must know track layout and speed limits before. Great majority of railway tracks on the world don't have any systems to slow down top the train if it goes over designed speed limit and there are no problems with that.
But this train was capable of going up to 250 km/h !
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:28 AM   #1624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post

But this train was capable of going up to 250 km/h !
So? All trains can overspeed by twice the speed limit in certain sections, but drivers are trained to... Yes, drive. As a passanger train driver you are trained on a particular stretch until you know by heart when do you need to accelerate and when do you need to stop.

We cannot yet say why did he overspeed, but given that no message was sent before to controllers informing about a major problems with breaks, we can guess he just didn't realize since he wasn't paying enough attention - a fatal mistake when you carry people.

We should however wait for the investigators conclusions.

On the other hand, I don't think Renfe should be blamed - signalling and tracks belong to Adif, and not to the train operator.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:29 AM   #1625
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Doesn't matter. All high-speed trains nowadays can do 250+ km/h but they still can drive on railways with standard signalling which cannot affect speed of travelling train.

It is similar with airplanes: despite powerful computers and automatic systems landings and takeoffs which are the most dangerous part of flight are still done by a human.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:40 AM   #1626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
So? All trains can overspeed by twice the speed limit in certain sections, but drivers are trained to... Yes, drive. As a passanger train driver you are trained on a particular stretch until you know by heart when do you need to accelerate and when do you need to stop.

We cannot yet say why did he overspeed, but given that no message was sent before to controllers informing about a major problems with breaks, we can guess he just didn't realize since he wasn't paying enough attention - a fatal mistake when you carry people.

We should however wait for the investigators conclusions.

On the other hand, I don't think Renfe should be blamed - signalling and tracks belong to Adif, and not to the train operator.
Did not turned out well ... did it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Doesn't matter. All high-speed trains nowadays can do 250+ km/h but they still can drive on railways with standard signalling which cannot affect speed of travelling train.

It is similar with airplanes: despite powerful computers and automatic systems landings and takeoffs which are the most dangerous part of flight are still done by a human.
Not this train.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:42 AM   #1627
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Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
we can guess he just didn't realize since he wasn't paying enough attention - a fatal mistake when you carry people.
Yes. But human beings are not perfect. Mistakes happen. Never was and never will be a man with no mistakes.
Train drivers, too, are human beings.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 11:11 AM   #1628
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Can anybody explain all the functions of ASFA? From the wikipedia entry and a Youtube clip I can only make up that it protects against SPADs. For a system that was first implemented in the 70's lack of speed check facilities would seem strange to me. You can still have a massive accident when a 120 km/h train drives over a 40 km/h switch at 90 km/h.
From what I've read it seems that ASFA works only as a "SPAD protector" - it will stop a train that passed a signal showing the red aspect. In this case, the 80 km/h speed limit on the curve was not shown on the signal. Speed limiting aspects are basically shown in a case when the speed limit is caused by track change, not by things like curve radius - at least that's how it works in the signalling systems I'm familiar with. But even if ASFA was able to stop a speeding train, it wouldn't do much good since the ASFA balise is about 100-200 meters from the curve, so the train going at 200 km/h would have little time to slow down.

Another thing bothers me though. This artilce on El-Pais webpage (in Spanish, unfortunately) states that:

Quote:
El sistema ERTMS, mas moderno porque controla la velocidad de tren durante todo el trayecto, no esta implementado en ese tramo ni en el tren alvia accidentado
Which - as I understand - means that the train wasn't equipped at all with the ERTMS devices. Is that even possible or is that a journalists' mistake?
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Old July 26th, 2013, 11:38 AM   #1629
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Originally Posted by G5man View Post
So why was the ERTMS not programmed to have limits before entering the speed restricted curve?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blunderbuss View Post
From what I've read it seems that ASFA works only as a "SPAD protector" - it will stop a train that passed a signal showing the red aspect. In this case, the 80 km/h speed limit on the curve was not shown on the signal. Speed limiting aspects are basically shown in a case when the speed limit is caused by track change, not by things like curve radius - at least that's how it works in the signalling systems I'm familiar with. But even if ASFA was able to stop a speeding train, it wouldn't do much good since the ASFA balise is about 100-200 meters from the curve, so the train going at 200 km/h would have little time to slow down.

Another thing bothers me though. This artilce on El-Pais webpage (in Spanish, unfortunately) states that:



Which - as I understand - means that the train wasn't equipped at all with the ERTMS devices. Is that even possible or is that a journalists' mistake?


"Though Spain was the first country to make use of the EU's European rail traffic management system (ERTMS), which automatically brakes trains exceeding designated speeds, the system was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA."

- John Hooper guardian.co.uk, Thursday 25 July 2013 18.18 BST
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Old July 26th, 2013, 11:43 AM   #1630
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The high speed sections of the line are supervised by ETCS, the rolling stock is equipped with it as well.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 11:49 AM   #1631
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The s730 apparently does not use ERTMS when traveling across that line... It uses ASFA during all the trip.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #1632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
"Though Spain was the first country to make use of the EU's European rail traffic management system (ERTMS), which automatically brakes trains exceeding designated speeds, the system was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA."

- John Hooper guardian.co.uk, Thursday 25 July 2013 18.18 BST
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The high speed sections of the line are supervised by ETCS, the rolling stock is equipped with it as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bipo View Post
The s730 apparently does not use ERTMS when traveling across that line... It uses ASFA during all the trip.
It seems we have some disagreement on the topic. The question is: why wasn't the ERTMS/ETCS implemented on the newly build section of the HSL? Cost reduction?
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Old July 26th, 2013, 12:29 PM   #1633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blunderbuss View Post
It seems we have some disagreement on the topic. The question is: why wasn't the ERTMS/ETCS implemented on the newly build section of the HSL? Cost reduction?
$50 -$100 million US ?

See http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/...estions_en.pdf
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Old July 26th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #1634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blunderbuss View Post
It seems we have some disagreement on the topic. The question is: why wasn't the ERTMS/ETCS implemented on the newly build section of the HSL? Cost reduction?
Read again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bipo View Post
The s730 apparently does not use ERTMS when traveling across that line... It uses ASFA during all the trip.
It seems (that is not clear yet) that the s730 does not use ERTMS in that line. It's not that the line doesn't have ERTMS installed (it has). Have a look at this video (the 360p resolution doesn't work, but others do) of the same track. You can clearly see the ERTMS beacons there:

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Old July 26th, 2013, 12:51 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
That's what happened. It was a governmental decision to allow 'high speed' trains to run on 'low speed' tracks w/o the ERTMS-compliant signalling system.
Something every government in Europe allows btw...
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Old July 26th, 2013, 01:28 PM   #1636
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Usually because their legacy control system also has a speed control feature (Some systems like (ASFA, TBL1, crocodile) don't)
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Old July 26th, 2013, 01:50 PM   #1637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blunderbuss View Post
It seems we have some disagreement on the topic. The question is: why wasn't the ERTMS/ETCS implemented on the newly build section of the HSL? Cost reduction?
Well, I guess because actually it is not a High speed line, but a 'rail line in high speed' sections where trains use to get 200 kph and sections in 80 or 120, ERTMS is designed for the HSL network, where trains travel at 350 kph, so, just in 3 lines, the HSL of the north will be inaugurated in 2018, and AVE trains along others will start using it at real high speed. (ERTMS is working on the high speed sections of the north)
This section of track is used by at least 900 trains every month.
The security of the 1000 long-way trains which travel every day through the country works well but the other day... Even in the whole Europe everything runs great for the millions of train travels which happen every day, but there's always something which happens once every 5 or 10 years in conventional speed or high speed in any country. I hope this 'posibilities' will finish in some years.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/g...alizacion.html
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Old July 26th, 2013, 01:52 PM   #1638
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Is this the same train the Spanish will be providing to the Saudis?
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Old July 26th, 2013, 01:59 PM   #1639
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Quote:
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Is this the same train the Spanish will be providing to the Saudis?
No, it is not. But?
The train is a wonderful thing of the engineering, there has been no problem with the most hybrid train on earth, neither with the tracks... It seems to be obvious. (Please, read the coments)
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Old July 26th, 2013, 02:38 PM   #1640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
I understand that!!! But don't you think the engineers who designed the HSR portion of the track should have thought about installing some technology to ensure that the train could never enter the conventional track above a certain speed threshold? It is beyond absurd to leave it entirely up to the driver, especially in such a sensitive spot, where the cost of human error is certain to have deadly consequences.
Let me put the other way around: Spain has many trainsets that are coventional non-highs speed trains that could easily reach speeds on the 160-180km/h under their current configuration. Meaning a non-HSR train could have crashed on a similar curve.
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