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Old July 26th, 2013, 03:14 PM   #1641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Usually because their legacy control system also has a speed control feature (Some systems like (ASFA, TBL1, crocodile) don't)
There are quite a few examples of high speed trains travelling on conventional networks where only a legacy train protection system (that often does indeed not enforce speed limits) is in use. In fact in most countries that is quite a regular occurence. When you leave Köln by ICE you even pass some mechanical signals still!
The only country where this does not happen on a regular basis is probably Spain, because there the HSL network is quite well seperated from the rest...
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Old July 26th, 2013, 03:43 PM   #1642
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It seems (that is not clear yet) that the s730 does not use ERTMS in that line. It's not that the line doesn't have ERTMS installed (it has). Have a look at this video (the 360p resolution doesn't work, but others do) of the same track. You can clearly see the ERTMS beacons there:

Ok, correct me if I'm mistaken - the yellow beacons are from the ERTMS and the the brown ones are from ASFA. So, the ERTMS is on the line, the trackside equipment has been installed - only it's not being used (at least all the time), either because the trains (at least the s730) are not equipped with on board systems or because it's simply switched off? Is it what the author from Guardian quoted earlier meant when he wrote that "the system [ERTMS] was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA"? On the cabview video you can see the train pass a sign saying "CAMBIO MODO ASFA".

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Originally Posted by zazo, View Post
Well, I guess because actually it is not a High speed line, but a 'rail line in high speed' sections where trains use to get 200 kph and sections in 80 or 120, ERTMS is designed for the HSL network, where trains travel at 350 kph, so, just in 3 lines, the HSL of the north will be inaugurated in 2018, and AVE trains along others will start using it at real high speed. (ERTMS is working on the high speed sections of the north)
Here in Poland we have lines where ERTMS is being installed and the top speed is 160 km/h so I see no reason why the Spanish should not use ERTMS on their dedicated HSL just because the trains don't travel at 350 km/h.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 04:06 PM   #1643
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Ok, correct me if I'm mistaken - the yellow beacons are from the ERTMS and the the brown ones are from ASFA. So, the ERTMS is on the line, the trackside equipment has been installed - only it's not being used (at least all the time), either because the trains (at least the s730) are not equipped with on board systems or because it's simply switched off?
ERTMS is installed and working on that line (orense-santiago). About the train ...some people say it was NOT working with ertms and some people say it WAS so far this is still discussed

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Here in Poland we have lines where ERTMS is being installed and the top speed is 160 km/h so I see no reason why the Spanish should not use ERTMS on their dedicated HSL just because the trains don't travel at 350 km/h.
ERTMS is used in all hsl but madrid sevilla that has LZB (german) and acces to stations (correct me if im wrong). ERTMS is also installed in madrid commuter system which i doubt they go over 160 km/h
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Old July 26th, 2013, 04:42 PM   #1644
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In that section, there is not ERTMS only ASFA... why? maybe because is just 4km away from the station, about 2mins! some people says because ERTMS doesnt work properly in a curv like that, in any case that is a blind section in security terms.

Anyways, is not the first time the driver pass through this way, so he knew perfectly which were the conditions... He simply wanted to run at overspeed, because theres not ERTMS to limit him... He knew it!

Do we need to put ERTMS inside the stations too?

Even a kid playing in a simulator, learns where in the track you must to go slower and where to go faster... and theres not ERTMS in the simulator, which doesnt mean youre going to derail everytime!

Last edited by TimeOff; July 26th, 2013 at 05:22 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #1645
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Is this the same train the Spanish will be providing to the Saudis?
Mexico wants the same train, there is not any problem with the train or the technology but with the way they implemented it and the human resources.

It is about 75% human error, the rest negligence on the implementation of systems anti overspeed..
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Old July 26th, 2013, 04:57 PM   #1646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blunderbuss View Post
Ok, correct me if I'm mistaken - the yellow beacons are from the ERTMS and the the brown ones are from ASFA. So, the ERTMS is on the line, the trackside equipment has been installed - only it's not being used (at least all the time), either because the trains (at least the s730) are not equipped with on board systems or because it's simply switched off? Is it what the author from Guardian quoted earlier meant when he wrote that "the system [ERTMS] was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA"? On the cabview video you can see the train pass a sign saying "CAMBIO MODO ASFA".



Here in Poland we have lines where ERTMS is being installed and the top speed is 160 km/h so I see no reason why the Spanish should not use ERTMS on their dedicated HSL just because the trains don't travel at 350 km/h.
I think you don't have understood what it's written at all or you don't follow the thread.
This HSL in construction will be inaugurated in 2018-2020, there are two sections working as HSL with normal speeds of 220 and with ERTMS working. The accident has not happened on a HSL but in a conventional line inside a city, so the control system is not ERTMS, but ASFA, the one which works on conventional lines. ERTMS system ends 400 m before the place of the crash, enough distance to reduce from 190 kph to 100/80 kph, as 30 trains do everyday for a long time.
This train is prepared to go through conventional lines in iberian gauge and ''medium-high speed'' on HSL, both electrial and diesel, and it is capable to read both control systems, ASFA does not stop the trains on conventional lines. In the european media it's said the train received perfectly the signal and activated the alarm, but the driver couldn't stop, he tried on the bend, and this is the reason why the disaster happened.
A human error.

Here you can see how ''fast'' this line is: Section capable to receive High speed from Ourense to 5 km from Santiago.

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Last edited by zazo,; July 26th, 2013 at 05:33 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #1647
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Originally Posted by keber View Post
Signalling wise around 200 m according to posted videos of a track in normal conditions.
Still having ERMTS or not on particular part of the track this is no excuse for driver for not obeying speed limits. He/She must know track layout and speed limits before. Great majority of railway tracks on the world don't have any systems to slow down top the train if it goes over designed speed limit and there are no problems with that.
Exactly..
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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:19 PM   #1648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
He simply wanted tu run at overspeed, because theres not ERTMS to limit him... He knew it!
That is quite a big implication you do here. If he speeded intentionally at a place where he know that there was no ERTMS it would make him sole reliable for the accident. The reason is in the way safety systems are designed. Unlike security system, safety system are designed against errors, not against abuse.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #1649
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NEW INFO: as the train is a hybrid one which can run in any track, it can read both systems, ASFA (for conventional and stations) and ERTMS (for HSL).
Well, the route it was doing is HSL in one section, conventional in another and HSL in iberian gauge in another.
The driver from the Ourense station (where a small HSL section starts) to the place of the accident didn't activate the ERTMS system that day on that travel (it came from an ASFA rail section), so all this way it was travelling on ASFA, the manual system which cannot stop the train unless you're faster than 200 kph, this explains why the train didn't stopped before inside the tunnel on the HSL, ERTMS was not activated, but the manual, so the driver made a mistake and in order to solve it, he decided to stop the train on the bend... and this is because the train crashed, actually the speed is not the reason, but the slowdown.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:38 PM   #1650
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mistake? after reading what he posted on his facebook I sustain the theory that the driver simply didnt activate the ERTMS because he wanted to run and "gozar" (enjoy) the overspeed at he stated by his own words.

When he tried to stop, it was to late.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #1651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
mistake? after reading what he posted on his facebook I sustain the theory that the driver simply didnt activate the ERTMS because he wanted to run and "gozar" (enjoy) the overspeed at he stated by his own words.

When he tried to stop, it was to late.
Nobody thinks that. It's just stupid.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:48 PM   #1652
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Someone else's thoughts partially, but let's analyze that kind of speculation.

What if...
What if it wasn't the driver's first time?
Certainly in the beginning he used to stick to the rules and passed through the bend with the allowed 80 km/h. Soo slow...
Then he tried 100 km/h. No problems.
Why not try 120? Passed.
Would be fascinating to try 140... Wow!
You know what I mean? Needed adrenaline or something.
Just nobody noticed or acted.

Only a hypothesis.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:48 PM   #1653
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psychologist will have an important part in this case.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 06:32 PM   #1654
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psychologist will have an important part in this case.
Yes. You obviously need one.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 06:48 PM   #1655
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Please keep this thread respectful. Obviously emotions are running away at the moment due to the tragedy and so we should avoid idle speculation - save that for the nonsense off-topic sections of the forum and please only stick to the facts. It is bad enough that such an event happened let alone to tar and feather people without (as of yet) conclusive proof.

Many thanks.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #1656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zazo, View Post
he decided to stop the train on the bend... and this is because the train crashed, actually the speed is not the reason, but the slowdown.
so you think this train could have negotiated this bend at this speed had it not been for the activation of the brakes?
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Old July 26th, 2013, 07:03 PM   #1657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zazo, View Post
ERTMS system ends 400 m before the place of the crash, enough distance to reduce from 190 kph to 100/80 kph, as 30 trains do everyday for a long time.
I hope the 400m is a typo and meant to say 4000m. 190 km/h to 80 km/h in 400m means a required deceleration of 2,85 m/s^2. That's a bit much for normal service braking of a train.

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Originally Posted by zazo, View Post
so the driver made a mistake and in order to solve it, he decided to stop the train on the bend... and this is because the train crashed, actually the speed is not the reason, but the slowdown.
I also thought of that. Why would the train pass over 50% of the bend without problems and all of a sudden something seems to upset the balance. It is actually the carriages that derail first and pulls the front power car with them.

When you drive a car through a bend at speed and brake heavily mid corner, there is good chance you'll spin of the road. In this case the wheels can handle either the cornering force or the braking force, not both at the same time. Here the same may have happened.

I'll be very curious to hear the results of the official inquiry. The driver obviously sped, so he's partly to blame. But the party responsible for the infrastructure is just as guilty, because they didn't seem to have provided any protection against speeding trains. We'll have to wait.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 07:03 PM   #1658
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Please keep this thread respectful. Obviously emotions are running away at the moment due to the tragedy and so we should avoid idle speculation - save that for the nonsense off-topic sections of the forum and please only stick to the facts. It is bad enough that such an event happened let alone to tar and feather people without (as of yet) conclusive proof.

Many thanks.
youre right, poor people those whose only argument is to unrespect other forumers because they dont agree with their opinions.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 07:20 PM   #1659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
It is bad enough that such an event happened let alone to tar and feather people without (as of yet) conclusive proof.

Many thanks.
In view of what is ascertained so far, I guess the only possibility for the blame to be shifted from the driver would be a failure of the brakes or the ASFA (it won't slow down the train but it's designed to give out a slow down signal, if I understand it right), AND if the trainer was not trained to cope with this last evenience. "To tar and feather" is a suggestive phrase but in absence of a failure, any way you put it, the accident's responsibility lies largely on the driver's conscience (as he himself admitted). It is true that, morally, the people who organized the line are also at fault (abrupt change of speed, no further protection layer from overspeed). If I had to guess, the driver was distracted, possibly chatting with his colleague or something in that fashion, so he lost track of his position, and missed the speed warning. One mitigating circumstance for him could be fatigue.
M-NL: I doubt a corner designed for 80 km/h (small radius, not sloped) can retain a train going at 200. Also a train is not a car, it's not wheel friction that keeps it on the rails in a bend, it's the wheels' inner rim, so I don't think braking in the corner could play a major role.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 07:29 PM   #1660
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Please keep this thread respectful. Obviously emotions are running away at the moment due to the tragedy and so we should avoid idle speculation - save that for the nonsense off-topic sections of the forum and please only stick to the facts. It is bad enough that such an event happened let alone to tar and feather people without (as of yet) conclusive proof.

Many thanks.
Please tell that to the guy who registered here just to come troll this thread... and then sarcastically reacts to your post.
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