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Old July 26th, 2013, 08:52 PM   #1681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
So the track is not secured in case of e.g. driver's heart attack?
That's generally the train itself with something like a 'dead man's switch'.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 08:57 PM   #1682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
That's generally the train itself with something like a 'dead man's switch'.
Well I know - it had been introduced in many trains all around the world, but it has the temporal interval you have to push the button within.

Therefore I agree with attus. The system where high-speed track is ended by sharp bend and driver takes full responsibility of slowing down is mistake by itself.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #1683
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There's a video of the view from the driver's cab of a train which shows clearly how slowly the bend ought to have been taken.

Well I found it useful - it makes the accident footage look that much more terrible to me.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:08 PM   #1684
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an hour before the accident, a train crossed just like this and today several ones did just as safe like that... all of them slowed down by the drivers...
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:09 PM   #1685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Wasn't the train capable of 250 km/h and didn't it come off a high speed track just before it went into the bend?
Of course it's capable to get 250 kph, almost every train in Spain... (my father's car is capable to run up to 250 kph too)

The track from where it was coming accept now 220 kph as maximum in a small section, that line will be a real HSL in 2018 or 2020 I've been investigating and actually high speed in Europe is considered more than 250 kph in new lines.

Here you can read the maximum speed in that section which in the future will be a HSL. (the line is capable to host 300 kph in a future):




High speed lines are: Madrid-France, Madrid-South, Madrid-East, Madrid-Valladolid. These lines are the only ones were AVE runs (not in Madrid-Valladolid), and the only ones where this train can run up to 350 kph, and there are some other trains which can use some of them, but not at this speed, sure.

Of course the Alvia trains which makes the route from Madrid to Cadiz using the HSL until Seville and the conventional to Cadiz are not considered High speed services, they don't reach 250 kph...

This is not a High speed train, and uses a small section which will accept high speed (+250) in the future. I may say this train goes through the high speed line from Madrid to Segovia (some km) in the HSL Madrid-Valladolid (AVE doesn't exist there) and speed doesn't get 250 kph (it's capable) then conventional, then a new iberian line which will receive AVE's in 2018.


Here you may read the declaration of the Renfe's president (let's go to the last section):
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/0...374857316.html


THIS IS NOT THE PROPER THREAD, let's go to conventional one.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #1686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Therefore I agree with attus. The system where high-speed track is ended by sharp bend and driver takes full responsibility of slowing down is mistake by itself.
Then you also agree with me, as I have repeated that same sentiment a few times already
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #1687
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Quote:
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(cut)
Hmm... maybe the accident related messages can be moved over?
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:29 PM   #1688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zazo, View Post
I think you don't have understood what it's written at all or you don't follow the thread.
This HSL in construction will be inaugurated in 2018-2020, there are two sections working as HSL with normal speeds of 220 and with ERTMS working. The accident has not happened on a HSL but in a conventional line inside a city, so the control system is not ERTMS, but ASFA, the one which works on conventional lines. ERTMS system ends 400 m before the place of the crash, enough distance to reduce from 190 kph to 100/80 kph, as 30 trains do everyday for a long time.
This train is prepared to go through conventional lines in iberian gauge and ''medium-high speed'' on HSL, both electrial and diesel, and it is capable to read both control systems, ASFA does not stop the trains on conventional lines. In the european media it's said the train received perfectly the signal and activated the alarm, but the driver couldn't stop, he tried on the bend, and this is the reason why the disaster happened.
A human error.
As much as I admire your knowledge and expertise on the topic, I'd really appreciate if you refrained from making assumptions about what I know and what I've read. I know perfectly well where the accident occured, what are the speed limits on the curve and on the line before that. The question whether ERTMS was active before the crash has been raised both in the media and in different sections of this forum, so I guess me inquiring the problem of the ERTMS on the section before the crash site wasn't completely off the line - especially that you admited yourself that the ERTMS wasn't on, because the driver forgot to switch it on. Thank you for clearing that out - I'm just wondering whether your explanation is only a hypothesis or is it confirmed somewhere by the media/Spanish railway companies/Spanish authorities (if so, just say it, I don't speak Spanish, I might have simply missed it).
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:31 PM   #1689
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Chairman of rail company, ADIF, says driver should have started braking 4km before crash site.

Adif asegura que el maquinista debió empezar a frenar cuatro kilómetros antes del accidente
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:37 PM   #1690
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I wonder if the driver normally does switch ERTMS on on that bit of track, and forgot this time around, but was subconsciously still waiting for the signal to switch to ASFA, which never came.

Was it allowed to run that stretch on ASFA with that particular train?
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:55 PM   #1691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blunderbuss View Post
Ok, correct me if I'm mistaken - the yellow beacons are from the ERTMS and the the brown ones are from ASFA. So, the ERTMS is on the line, the trackside equipment has been installed - only it's not being used (at least all the time), either because the trains (at least the s730) are not equipped with on board systems or because it's simply switched off? Is it what the author from Guardian quoted earlier meant when he wrote that "the system [ERTMS] was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA"? On the cabview video you can see the train pass a sign saying "CAMBIO MODO ASFA".



Here in Poland we have lines where ERTMS is being installed and the top speed is 160 km/h so I see no reason why the Spanish should not use ERTMS on their dedicated HSL just because the trains don't travel at 350 km/h.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blunderbuss View Post
As much as I admire your knowledge and expertise on the topic, I'd really appreciate if you refrained from making assumptions about what I know and what I've read. I know perfectly well where the accident occured, what are the speed limits on the curve and on the line before that. The question whether ERTMS was active before the crash has been raised both in the media and in different sections of this forum, so I guess me inquiring the problem of the ERTMS on the section before the crash site wasn't completely off the line - especially that you admited yourself that the ERTMS wasn't on, because the driver forgot to switch it on. Thank you for clearing that out - I'm just wondering whether your explanation is only a hypothesis or is it confirmed somewhere by the media/Spanish railway companies/Spanish authorities (if so, just say it, I don't speak Spanish, I might have simply missed it).

Zazo has his/her own agenda/interest.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:57 PM   #1692
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I think RENFE/ADIF will "hang the driver out to dry", only to deflect from their own negligence.

There is *no way* that a modern train should be allowed to exit a HSL just 400m before such a sharp curve at 250 km/h. They know it, but politics will make sure the driver takes the blame, in order to preserve confidence in the high speed rail system.

As others have said above, what if the driver had a heart attack? The signalling should have reduced the speed to the appropriate level before leaving the HSL. Period.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:02 PM   #1693
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so technology should be blamed so nobody else trust in High Speed Industry?

Then implement ERTMS everywhere, even inside the station and on tracks with 20kmh limit, because drivers are not trustable at all... mere passengers.

If the speed limit is 10kmh with ERTMS and a train crashes at 20kmh is not drivers responsability, but technological one... ?

Ideology is starting to hijack this tragedy... now is unions vs evil corporations, liberals vs conservatives, PSOE vs PP...
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:11 PM   #1694
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Don't be an idiot. This is a 250 km/h section decelerating to 80 km/h curve with suddenly no safety system. The potential for a huge accident is obvious and it is a design flaw or at least cost cutting on the part of the railway company.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #1695
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Okay, this is a final warning to all:

Do not speculate or fight over this. Let us wait for the news to come out. The next person who starts a fight over this with provocative comments will be given a brig to cool off. This doesn't apply to all in the thread of course, but please show some respect! Too many people, including a friend of a colleague, lost their lives.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:15 PM   #1696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Don't be an idiot. This is a 250 km/h section decelerating to 80 km/h curve with suddenly no safety system. The potential for a huge accident is obvious and it is a design flaw or at least cost cutting on the part of the railway company.
no safety system? but still all other drivers are not derailing... maybe because they are responsible people and do not shut off ERTMS 4km before the bend.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:35 PM   #1697
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Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
maybe because they are responsible people and do not shut off ERTMS 4km before the bend.
If you look at the map shown in post #1538 of this tread you'll notice that the ETCS to ASFA switch occurs at 4km before the bend, just before the sign announcing the 80 km/h curve. For some weird reason in the opposite direction the ASFA to ETCS switch, again according to that same map, already happens somewhere close to the accident site.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 11:00 PM   #1698
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Has it been confirmed whether ERTMS was activated on the HSR portion of the track? If it wasn't, that's a major clue as to what might have happened. It is hard to imagine that a properly functioning ERTMS would not have forced a deceleration of the train prior to entering the conventional track with such an imminent tight curve.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 11:14 PM   #1699
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Service (not yet fully) recovered.

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Old July 27th, 2013, 12:20 AM   #1700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
so technology should be blamed so nobody else trust in High Speed Industry?

Then implement ERTMS everywhere, even inside the station and on tracks with 20kmh limit, because drivers are not trustable at all... mere passengers.

If the speed limit is 10kmh with ERTMS and a train crashes at 20kmh is not drivers responsability, but technological one... ?

Ideology is starting to hijack this tragedy... now is unions vs evil corporations, liberals vs conservatives, PSOE vs PP...
The deaths,injuries and various costs to Spain could have been avoided if automatic braking technology were engaged.
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