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Old July 27th, 2013, 10:15 PM   #1741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Of course he knows that. He's been working at RENFE for over 30 years, he must have been aware of how the safety systems work and what their limitations are. Yet still, I don't think there is any malicious intent from the driver. I also don't think he is a daredevil or "addicted to the kick of high speed".
so the only thing that left to know are the reasons of his behaviour.. only that..
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Old July 27th, 2013, 10:38 PM   #1742
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OK so this newpaper article in spanish says it all.

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/...29_818532.html

Conclusions:

1.

The Talgo model 730 is not homologated for ETCS despite 13 months in traffic.

2.

In November 2011 PP won the elections, many of the most important polititians in PP come from Galicia

3.

To homologate a new trainmodel takes many months and cost a lot. A train has to run for X hundreds of thousands of Km before ETCS is approved.

4.

The new Talgo 730 was put in traffic in June 2012, remember that PP won the elections in November 2011.

5.

With ETCS homologated this accident would NEVER IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY have occured.

6.

Which is the ******* political party that pressured ADIF/FOMENTO/RENFE to put the new trainmodel in traffic despite it lacking the latest safety system?

I'll give a clue, where did the accident occur, YES that is right in ******* Galicia from where Mariano ******* Rajoy come from.

There you have it. Now let's see them sweep this mess under the carpet because you can be damned sure no politician will come forward and admit responsibility.
You seem to like to ****: ******* this, ******* that, ******* that thing in particular...

You want to show respect. You don´t want to talk about "******* Galicia" when many of the dead are from that area. After all, it´s not your country.

Thank you for your kindness.

El País got some facts wrong.

The Alvia 730 are homologated for ETCS, otherwise there´s no way they would be running between Madrid and Medina del Campo.
But they´re not homologated between Ourense and Santiago. But that´s not the point, as another fortumer has explained.

There are not that many politicians from the Spanish Government coming from Galicia: only Mariano Rajoy (the PM), and Ana Pastor (the minister of Infrastructure, though she´s born in Castile and Leon). The former PSOE Spanish Government had another Galician Minister for Infrastructure, Jose Blanco (but he´s no longer in charge, obviously).

Don´t make so many assumptions and show some respect, please.
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Last edited by 437.001; July 28th, 2013 at 02:49 AM.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 11:09 PM   #1743
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Punishments and user notes have been handed out now. Third time I've had to post here about this issue. I am following this thread closely.

I ask everyone again, please keep the discussion respectful. A lot of people lost their lives.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 11:11 PM   #1744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
You seem to like to ****.

The Alvia 730 are homologated for ETCS, otherwise there´s no way they would be running between Madrid and Medina del Campo.
But they´re not homologated between Ourense and Santiago. But that´s not the point, as another fortumer has explained.
According to Wikipedia, the Madrid - Valladolid high speed line is equipped with ERTMS and ASFA Digital, so it should be possible for an Alvia S/730 to operate there under ASFA.

It would have made a difference if the S/730 were allowed to operate under ETCS, if the end of the ETCS section would have a speed limit of 100 km/h. ETCS would have forced the driver to slow down to 100 km/h when control is handed over to ASFA, which would force him to realize he is not allowed to continue at 200 km/h.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 11:15 PM   #1745
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But remember that the accident was with a speed below 200
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Old July 27th, 2013, 11:36 PM   #1746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
According to Wikipedia, the Madrid - Valladolid high speed line is equipped with ERTMS and ASFA Digital, so it should be possible for an Alvia S/730 to operate there under ASFA.
It is possible to every train operating on the Madrid-Olmedo-Valladolid HSL.

I´ve used the Alvia 730 between Santiago and Madrid.
It uses the ERTMS/ETCS between Olmedo and Madrid. Why? Because there it runs at more than 220 km/h.
It doesn´t use it between Ourense and Santiago, nor between Santiago and Corunna..
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Old July 28th, 2013, 12:48 AM   #1747
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Miss the whole stretch where he should have been breaking until it was too late. I imagine that on lengthy intercity journeys with only occasional stops a driver's alertness may not be at 100% at all times and he might get distracted from time to time. Who knows what this guy was doing? Maybe he was positing pictures on Facebook or texting to his girlfriend. I am not trying to be funny.
I don't want to even think about such a scenario. The only thing that I could understand (not excuse) was if he fell asleep because of fatigue. Actually I tend to consider it the most likely hypotesis since it looks like the driver was alone at his post (also a big blunder by RENFE) and could not have been distracted chatting with his colleague, and since ASFA should have given out enough visual or acoustic cues to let him know where he was. Well I guess we'll soon find out.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:18 AM   #1748
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Quote:
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I don't want to even think about such a scenario. The only thing that I could understand (not excuse) was if he fell asleep because of fatigue. Actually I tend to consider it the most likely hypotesis since it looks like the driver was alone at his post (also a big blunder by RENFE) and could not have been distracted chatting with his colleague, and since ASFA should have given out enough visual or acoustic cues to let him know where he was. Well I guess we'll soon find out.
Anything could have happened, we don't know. The question remains how it can be left on the shoulders of one driver in a situation with only about a minute of reaction time. How can there be no redundancy built into the system for such a high risk segment?
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:25 AM   #1749
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Although still mirky at best, gincan's flippant rhetoric was colourful and helped at setting the tone, especially since the engineer's hurried, rushed arrest sometime around this morning (GMT -5 hrs) ... a lot of fishiness surrounds these crashes as of late ...
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:38 AM   #1750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
Although still mirky at best, gincan's flippant rhetoric was colourful and helped at setting the tone, especially since the engineer's hurried, rushed arrest sometime around this morning (GMT -5 hrs) ... a lot of fishiness surrounds these crashes as of late ...
He was arrested yesterday (July 26th, 2013) in the hospital.
Today he was only released from the hospital, and subsequently, sent to the police station.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:41 AM   #1751
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And already left hospital, being in the police station and to face a judge
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:48 AM   #1752
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Quote:
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Anything could have happened, we don't know. The question remains how it can be left on the shoulders of one driver in a situation with only about a minute of reaction time. How can there be no redundancy built into the system for such a high risk segment?
Any coach driver on a highway must have a reaction time of one second and nobody even conceived that they could have some redundancy, go figure. They don't even have any aid in the cockpit duplicating road signals.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 03:15 AM   #1753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Any coach driver on a highway must have a reaction time of one second and nobody even conceived that they could have some redundancy, go figure. They don't even have any aid in the cockpit duplicating road signals.
A poor analogy. For starters, a coach carries far fewer passengers and travels at a much lower velocity than a high speed train. Thus if a bus crashes (even on a freeway) the consequences are likely to be less catastrophic than a plane on wheels hurtling at 200+ kph. Secondly, a bus driver is in full control of his vehicle at all times so the chances of distraction are not as high. Sure he can still have a heart attack or fall asleep, and such accidents do happen from time to time, but that is an unavoidable element of such mode of transport. The passengers understand that and are willing to take that risk. They can also see the driver. High speed trains OTOH are highly automated machines where the driver is separated from passengers, is less actively involved in the operation of the vehicle and it is technologically possible (and far more critical) to have electronic safety features.

A better analogy would be a plane. All large commercial aircrafts have at least two pilots in the cockpit. The same should have been required here in the absence of ETCS.
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Last edited by Fitzrovian; July 28th, 2013 at 03:27 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 06:01 AM   #1754
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a survivor just revealed that the train was speeding at 210kmh just at the moment of derailment and not at 190kmh as the engineer said.



the latest information:

La Policía atribuye al maquinista homicidio por imprudencia

"Fuentes de la investigación consultadas por EL MUNDO barajan la teoría de que Francisco José Garzón hablaba por el teléfono móvil en el momento del accidente, informa Marisa Recuero."


"Sources of the Police research group consulted by EL MUNDO manage the theory that Francisco José Garzón was talking by mobile phone at the time of the accident, reports Marisa Recuero"

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Old July 28th, 2013, 06:39 AM   #1755
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Talking on a phone is not unusual for drivers of any train, as they have to communicate with departments such as Traffic Control or Dispatching.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:22 AM   #1756
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It is a vast MINORITY really, also did you not know that such systems DO NOT exhonerate at all the driver from stopping at the red signal?
Yes, basically you're right, these systems usually do not force the train to stop at before the red signal is reached; if he drive the train at a low speed against the stop signal, the system will not brake the train. However, most of them brakes the train if the driver does not brake at all.

Last edited by Attus; July 28th, 2013 at 10:27 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:46 AM   #1757
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basically there is a misconception... the driver is the one and 1st responsible... any other system is an assistance, a complement, a help, a redundant support.... in XIX century and most of XXth century there was not any kind of ASFA, ERTMS or whatever...

human being is at last the solely responsible, for the application, control and implementation of every kind of technology... since is his creator.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:51 AM   #1758
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a survivor just revealed that the train was speeding at 210kmh just at the moment of derailment and not at 190kmh as the engineer said.
And how did the survivor know that? I know it's not uncommon to use GPS for that, I did so myself on the Thalys. But GPS doesn't work inside tunnels, like the one just before the curve and needs some time to recover when the signal returns, sometimes displaying wrong figures in the process. The fact that you are inside a metal box with in this case rocks and concrete walls on either side doesn't help accuracy either.
The only thing I really trust for an accurate speed reading are the black boxes, which is investigated right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
basically there is a misconception... the driver is the one and 1st responsible... any other system is an assistance, a complement, a help, a redundant support.... in XIX century and most of XXth century there was not any kind of ASFA, ERTMS or whatever...
Ever since the invention of the train there have been a great deal of accidents because of driver failure and lack of those systems.
For safety systems levels are defined (see here). Train safety systems must meet the high level, level SIL4. That's because the consequences in a major accident (several dead people) are so severe. Research has shown that a person (yes, I know a person isn't an instrumented system) is not even reliable enough to reach SIL1 level.
So yes, the driver may have the final responsibility, but needs to be well supported, because he has a relatively high probability of failure. Unfortunately a lot of accidents were needed to come to that conclusion.
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Last edited by M-NL; July 28th, 2013 at 11:09 AM. Reason: Added second quote
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #1759
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most of XXth century there was not any kind of ASFA, ERTMS or whatever...
Negative. The first modern tools of this kind were created in 1930's.
And in there is no railway of 200 km/h without such a tool. For a speed of 200 km/h and more, taking all responsibility to the driver is insane. Period.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:56 AM   #1760
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RIP to the victims
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