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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:58 AM   #1761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
And how did the survivor know that?
He probably does not know anything but now he's in newspapers and he's happy about it.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:01 AM   #1762
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And how did the survivor know that? I know it's not uncommon to use GPS for that, I did so myself on the Thalys. But GPS doesn't work inside tunnels, like the one just before the curve and needs some time to recover when the signal returns, sometimes displaying wrong figures in the process. The fact that you are inside a metal box with in this case rocks and concrete walls on either side doesn't help accuracy either.
The only thing I really trust for an accurate speed reading are the black boxes, which is investigated right now.
I saw in TVe news and was looking for a source to post here (I didnt find a source since is very recent) but the case is this:

a girl says that her boyfriend told her "hey we are going so fast 210kmh dont you think?" and she looked at the monitor at her car and said "oh yeah, oh yes!" and then the derailment...

is what i saw in the news...

Last edited by TimeOff; July 28th, 2013 at 11:19 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:04 AM   #1763
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Negative. The first modern tools of this kind were created in 1930's.
And in there is no railway of 200 km/h without such a tool. For a speed of 200 km/h and more, taking all responsibility to the driver is insane. Period.
yes youre right, Im meaning at high speed rails... but is ok youre right.. still the idea is, that there was not such of a technology as we have now..
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:07 AM   #1764
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He probably does not know anything but now he's in newspapers and he's happy about it.
bro, I just said that she said so in the tv..... I dont know if she was paid by the government or if is a conspiracy theory by the masters of money... im telling you what very probably tomorrow you will be able to find by yourself googling a bit.

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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:28 AM   #1765
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And how did the survivor know that? ...
The speed is displayed in the car.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #1766
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Yes, basically you're right, these systems usually do not force the train to stop at before the red signal is reached; if he drive the train at a low speed against the stop signal, the system will not brake the train. However, most of them brakes the train if the driver does not brake at all.
Not only that, but not stopping at the red lights is held as a grave violation, and the driver will incur into penalties, or will get fired, even if he didn't cause any disaster and/or electronics intervened to stop the train afterwards.
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A poor analogy. For starters, a coach carries far fewer passengers
...yet there are a lot more coaches than trains out there.
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Originally Posted by Fitzrovian View Post
and travels at a much lower velocity than a high speed train. Thus if a bus crashes (even on a freeway) the consequences are likely to be less catastrophic than a plane on wheels hurtling at 200+ kph.
On the contrary, when a bus crashes at 120 km/h usually there is a 100 percent of casualties, while in most cases the majority on the people on a train survives. Even in the case at hand (an extreme one, since the crash happened at 200 km/h, and historically one of the worst) the number of victims is almost equal to the number of passengers on a coach. But anyway, a reaction time of one second (my original point) is the same at all speeds, and so is a (non-)reaction time of one minute, as in the case of Santiago.
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Secondly, a bus driver is in full control of his vehicle at all times so the chances of distraction are not as high.
You must be joking... the chances for fatigue, exhaustion or suddenly falling asleep are much higher for a bus.
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Sure he can still have a heart attack or fall asleep, and such accidents do happen from time to time,
'zactly, just about ten times more often than with trains.
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but that is an unavoidable element of such mode of transport. The passengers understand that and are willing to take that risk.
So why the passengers could not understand that there's a driver at the command of a train with full responsibility and a lighter physical and mental burden?
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They can also see the driver.
Big deal
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High speed trains OTOH are highly automated machines where the driver is separated from passengers, is less actively involved in the operation of the vehicle and it is technologically possible (and far more critical) to have electronic safety features.
Why is far more critical, I don't understand, regarding the technological possibility... so you believe that, since it is technologically possible to have electronic safety features (you really mean *an electronic replacement for the driver*) we should stop using trains that don't implement them? Do you realize that 95 percent of trains still work without them? Do you realize that the Santiago crash could have happened with a large number of non-HS trains on any non-HS line in the world? That anywhere a train was speeding at 190 km/h on a 80 km/h max bend you would have had a similar result?
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A better analogy would be a plane. All large commercial aircrafts have at least two pilots in the cockpit. The same should have been required here in the absence of ETCS.
Now this is a more interesting point. I agree that two drivers should ALWAYS be present at the same time at the command post, and that RENFE is responsible for not providing them (out of economic considerations, of course). Sadly, this is a trend happening everywhere. On the other hand, notice that planes ("highly automated machines where the driver is separated from the passengers") do have electronic safety features (the ALVIA train also had them) but do NOT provide for electronics to replace the pilots in fundamental phases of flight (take off and landing, where most accidents happen). Have you ever wondered why they don't? And what the pilots think about it? Have you ever wondered what the passengers think of having the pilots drive the planes in critical phases of flight vs. having electronics do the job? Have you ever wondered what would happen if we shifted the drivers' functions fully onto machines?
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Old July 28th, 2013, 12:49 PM   #1767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GH1618 View Post

The speed is displayed in the car.
Correct. All cars offer information like external temperature, number of car and live speed indeed
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Old July 28th, 2013, 12:56 PM   #1768
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Miss what? 4 kms of rail features? He didn't even START to brake.4 kms is the distance from the fatal bend where he should have started braking, a RENFE spokesperson said. I guess the moment he should have begun PREPARING to slow down is much earlier, this depends on the type of training he received. It is inexplicable any way you put it.
RENFE are a party in this trial not a witness. They would never say anything that would lay the minimal blame on themselves. They rather have the driver take all the blame.

As the editorial in el Pais wondered why have Adif and RENFE not have had a press conference to explain their side of the story?
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:20 PM   #1769
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If I may make a couple of points.

The accident occurred at a point where the high speed digital track equipped with automated train stopping systems (ETCS is European standard) changes over to an older Spanish system called ASFA for the last 4km into Santiago.

ASFA sounds alarms in cab when speed limits are exceeded but does not auto stop the train until speed on a restricted section of track exceeds 200kph. According to a survivor the monitor in his cab showed speed of 194kph just before the crash, so the ASFA stop would not be activated.

So did ASFA not function? Did the brakes fail? Did the driver fall asleep? Personally I doubt this - I think the driver's attention wandered. Why was he not alerted by ASFA alarms in his cab? Here it starts to get a bit hazy.

There have been suggestions that there is a short stretch of unalarmed track where the digital track using ECTS changes to ASFA, just before the bend where the crash occurred. In which case it is up to the driver to remember to slow down. Another explanation I read is that to trigger the changeover to ASFA, the train needs to reach a red signal and there is none on this section of track. So at the changeover point just before where the accident occurred it is up to the driver to remember himself to slow down.

Under this scenario, the driver's attention wandered and by the time the he got the alarm in his cab, it was too late to slow down. What happened in the cab should be on the train's black box, but I do wonder whether if it shows a gap in security systems at this point, if this will be released to the public.

RENFE the operating company has justified having the older tack and ASFA system on the approach to Santiago, despite the dangerous bend, on the grounds the driver should be slowing down here anyway on the approach to Santiago.

Both high speed and less high speed trains use the stretch of track where the accident occurred and some rail experts have expressed shock at the severity of the accident and queried if track fatigue was a contributing factor.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:36 PM   #1770
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But wasn't the train using ASFA since Ourense?

I watched on of those cab-ride videos (on a normal train). It appears that the HSL is a rather intermittent sequence of tunnels and viaducts, with not much external landscape references. In this case, it is easier to get distracted, especially by the sudden changes on lighting (the "flashing" effect). Even if you've driven a route several times, abundance of these repeated changes make remembering where you are a bit more tricky than a scenario like a very long tunnel, a sector along a river valley then crossing a big city and then two big curves on the final approach - for instance.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #1771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshoneyrose View Post
If I may make a couple of points.

The accident occurred at a point where the high speed digital track equipped with automated train stopping systems (ETCS is European standard) changes over to an older Spanish system called ASFA for the last 4km into Santiago.
Heck no. As they already pointed out in the spanish thread, here:
http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/...29_818532.html
it is said that ERMTS had never worked for this train on the section between Ourense and Santiago, quote: "Hasta Olmedo (Valladolid) está activado el sistema ERTMS. A partir de ahí, funciona el ASFA. Hay un tramo de 80 kilómetros entre Ourense y Santiago donde está instalado el ERTMS. A pesar de ello, RENFE no ha homologado el sistema para el Alvia en ese tramo, según confirman desde ADIF pese a que los trenes Avant de media distancia que circulan por esa misma línea sí lo utilizan".
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RENFE are a party in this trial not a witness. They would never say anything that would lay the minimal blame on themselves. They rather have the driver take all the blame.
Well I don't think RENFE could be so stupid as to lie on a piece of information that's so easily verifiable by the drivers' union or any journalist. There are signals, and written procedural documents. I'm not good at maths, but in my mind 4 kms more or less correspond to the distance needed to brake a train from 200 km/h to 70 km/h.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #1772
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To sum up
Ertms installed but not operating
That point had not ertms at all

The rest of HSR of Spain and some commuter lanes with high traffic have ertms
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Old July 28th, 2013, 02:27 PM   #1773
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Yes it appears, that contrary to what we were originally told, although the crash train was equipped with ETCS it had never used it, relying instead on the older ASFA for its entire journey. It is not clear if this was basic ASFA or the newer digital version. If the basic version then there would have been very little in the way of signals to the driver in his cab.

Here is what it said in the International Rail Journal on Friday

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ash-train.html

Here is an extract, click link to read full version

"Drivers of Avant trains brake manually on the section where the accident occurred because the driver interface does not display a braking curve in the transition section between ETCS and Afsa.......Both Asfa and the more advanced Asfa Digital are automatic train protection (ATP) systems, but the latter provides the driver with information on braking curves while standard Asfa only triggers an emergency brake application if a signal has been passed at danger. It is unclear at this stage which version of Asfa is installed on the line."

Anyone know the answer to this - it is standard or digital asfa in use on the line where the accident occurred?
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Old July 28th, 2013, 02:45 PM   #1774
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Do you realize that 95 percent of trains still work without them?
This is not correct. I do now know of many examples where trains are allowed to travel at speeds above 160kph without some form of cab signalling. There are countries where the number of trains that travel without some form of automatic train protection is zero...

Quote:
Do you realize that the Santiago crash could have happened with a large number of non-HS trains on any non-HS line in the world? That anywhere a train was speeding at 190 km/h on a 80 km/h max bend you would have had a similar result?
Where are those large numbers of trains able to travel at high speed without advanced protection?
Not in the US. Not in Germany. Not in the Netherlands. Not in Switzerland. Not in Belgium. Not in Italy. Not in France. Not in the UK. Not in Japan.

Only in Spain? Then Spain has a problem...

Quote:
Now this is a more interesting point. I agree that two drivers should ALWAYS be present at the same time at the command post, and that RENFE is responsible for not providing them (out of economic considerations, of course). Sadly, this is a trend happening everywhere.
Having a single engineer on a train is not a "trend", it is the norm. Having a second driver would only distract the first.
High speed trains travel with a single driver almost everywhere.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 02:47 PM   #1775
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Well I don't think RENFE could be so stupid as to lie on a piece of information that's so easily verifiable by the drivers' union or any journalist. There are signals, and written procedural documents. I'm not good at maths, but in my mind 4 kms more or less correspond to the distance needed to brake a train from 200 km/h to 70 km/h.
Ofcourse they won't lie. I mean that will not do anything that would put themselves in a bad light. Ideally all the blame lays on the driver for them. That's why I said that they are not a witness in this, they are possibly to blame as well. Let's wait the enquiry now.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 02:56 PM   #1776
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Not only that, but not stopping at the red lights is held as a grave violation, and the driver will incur into penalties, or will get fired, even if he didn't cause any disaster and/or electronics intervened to stop the train afterwards....yet there are a lot more coaches than trains out there.On the contrary, when a bus crashes at 120 km/h usually there is a 100 percent casualties, while in most cases the majority on the people on a train survives. Even in the case at hand (an extreme one, since the crash happened at 200 km/h, and historically one of the worst) the number of victims is almost equal to the number of passengers on a coach. But anyway, a reaction time of one second (my original point) is the same at all speeds, and so is a (non-)reaction time of one minute, as in the case of Santiago.You must be joking... the chances for fatigue, exhaustion or suddenly falling asleep are much higher for a bus.'zactly, just about ten times more often than with trains.So why the passengers could not understand that there's a driver at the command of a train with full responsibility and a lighter physical and mental burden?Big dea
Why is far more critical, I don't understand, regarding the technological possibility... so you believe that, since it is technologically possible to have electronic safety features (you really mean *an electronic replacement for the driver*) we should stop using trains that don't implement them? Do you realize that 95 percent of trains still work without them? Do you realize that the Santiago crash could have happened with a large number of non-HS trains on any non-HS line in the world? That anywhere a train was speeding at 190 km/h on a 80 km/h max bend you would have had a similar result?Now this is a more interesting point. I agree that two drivers should ALWAYS be present at the same time at the command post, and that RENFE is responsible for not providing them (out of economic considerations, of course). Sadly, this is a trend happening everywhere. On the other hand, notice that planes ("highly automated machines where the driver is separated from the passengers") do have electronic safety features (the ALVIA train also had them) but do NOT provide for electronics to replace the pilots in fundamental phases of flight (take off and landing, where most accidents happen). Have you ever wondered why they don't? And what the pilots think about it? Have you ever wondered what the passengers think of having the pilots drive the planes in critical phases of flight vs. having electronics do the job? Have you ever wondered what would happen if we shifted the drivers' functions fully onto machines?
You are continuing to be willfully obtuse. We are talking about a situation where a high speed train cruising at 200+ kph is suddenly required to decelerate to 80 kph within a single minute. This is not typical for "95 percent" of trains/journeys. This would almost never happen on a purely conventional track, and if it ever happens on a dedicated HSL there are back-up systems supporting the driver. It is not even comparable to a plane landing scenario where the pilot is in manual control of the flight for a long period of time prior to touchdown. If he falls asleep/gets distracted prior to descent the plane isn't going to crash into a wall. There are certain operational aspects of a flight that cannot be automated but there are other redundancies built into the system. Here, based on what I have read so far, there were none. Of course, ultimately this is a cost/benefit analysis. You look at the magnitude of risk, the probability of something going wrong, and the likely consequences. I guess RENFE, like you, thought that the cost/benefit analysis did not require implementing any redundancies in this scenario. The results speak for themselves.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 04:15 PM   #1777
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To everybody.... Please inform yourself before writing wrong things.

In Spain there have been full HSL with asfa and there are conventional lines with ertms.

Maybe a search and a query in the Spanish forums will answer you these and other questions
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Old July 28th, 2013, 05:37 PM   #1778
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Not in the US. Not in Germany. Not in the Netherlands. Not in Switzerland. Not in Belgium. Not in Italy. Not in France. Not in the UK.
I think that you are completely mistaken, starting by the UK, do trains running at 200 Km / H have a signalling system that prevents running faster that what the signals on the track indicate?

In Spain the other Line where a train can go up to 200 km / H is Cadiz Sevilla, where i hope they will deploy ERTMS / ECTS once the line is completely finished (it is now operational in 80 % of the line with Asfa digital).

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Old July 28th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #1779
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I don't see what it the point of having two drivers. It would create enormous CRM (cockipt resource management) issues. That happens on airplanes, but airplanes do need co-pilots because the impairment of a pilot means the plane can't possible land. On trains, impairment of a driver should mean the train stops. Might be a P.I.T.A. if it stops in the middle of a long tunnel, but loss of a driver ability to control the train shouldn't mean anything more than an emergency stop.

CRM-related issues are serious. For instance, drivers might think the other has managed to take note of something. You'd need specific procedures like those for flying airplanes and standardized cross-checked lists.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 07:11 PM   #1780
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Quote:
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the driver is the one and 1st responsible...
Nonsense. If not always, train accidents usually occur due to a chain of events, a series of causes.


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Having a second driver would only distract the first.
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