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Old July 28th, 2013, 07:50 PM   #1781
Surel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
It is a vast MINORITY really, also did you not know that such systems DO NOT exhonerate at all the driver from stopping at the red signal? But then again, running a red signal takes a few seconds of distraction, while in this case the loss of awareness lasted 30 seconds to one minute, go figure... if it is confirmed that ERMTS was not active, and ASFA does not give alarms inside the cabin, then it would be indeed a big blunder on RENFE-ADIF's part to leave such a delicate area unprotected. Nevertheless it is inexplicable how two trained drivers, who already worked on this line for so long, could miss the braking point by some 4 kilometers.
4 km at 200 km/h is just some 72 seconds. I guess that it can easily happen to lose concentration for one minute.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 07:57 PM   #1782
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there is not such of a sudden change from ERTMS to ASFA... this guy drove at full speed 83km before derail... where is the sudden change of conditions?

and he did so 60 times before... 60, 60.... no more, no less....
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Old July 28th, 2013, 08:03 PM   #1783
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Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
... where is the sudden change of conditions? ...
At the signals. The signal to reduce speed seems to be only 4 km before the curve. The exact nature of the signal and how it is communicated to the engineer is not clear to me, but I expect it will come out eventually.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 08:11 PM   #1784
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Any coach driver on a highway must have a reaction time of one second and nobody even conceived that they could have some redundancy, go figure. They don't even have any aid in the cockpit duplicating road signals.
Have you ever missed your exit on the motorway? Without a GPS that tells you take the exit, its quite easy to happen, after a long monotonous drive. The same holds for the driver. Without a safety system, its quite easy for him to lose concentration and forget to break.

From what I have read here, it seems to me that there were more things amiss. It certainly is not only the responsibility of the driver.

1) If there was no safety system malfunctioning then the designers of the track have the same responsibility as the driver because they should have installed better safety system. A safety system that would prevent this is available.

2) If there was a safety system malfunction, then the responsibility lays with the designers of the safety system as well.

3) If the systems were installed and working, but were shut off, then the responsibility is also with the person that shut them off or decided about not using them.

4) Only if the only person that knew and decided about shutting them off was the driver, then he would be the only responsible. Otherwise, in all other cases, there are also other responsible.

5) There is also a variant in which the driver did break, but there was some sort of break malfunction. In this case, its not his fault. This possibility can't be yet excluded.
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Last edited by Surel; July 28th, 2013 at 08:23 PM.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 08:25 PM   #1785
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Originally Posted by mshoneyrose View Post
Anyone know the answer to this - it is standard or digital asfa in use on the line where the accident occurred?
Standard ASFA, according to this:
http://www.eldiario.es/sociedad/Alvia-Adif-Renfe-Asfa-Digital_0_158184435.html

Approximate translation:
Quote:
In the fateful stretch of four km separating the end of the infrastructure of the high speed line between Ourense and Santiago de Compostela, safety equipment installed on the track, two sets of beacons, are ASFA Analog, a technology developed by Renfe and Dimetronic in the 60s of last century. This information was confirmed on Saturday by an official spokesman of ADIF, who justified this fact by saying "The ASFA Digital beacons are being developed by companies Dimetronic and Indra and are not yet available."

...sources indicate that no other section exists in the Spanish network in which trains are forced to drop speed from 200 to 80 kph. This drastic reduction in speed is further compounded by the fact that the operation is "disastrously badly signposted" with two ASFA Analog signals, a signpost and a book on board, leaving the the performance of drastic braking in the exclusive hands of the driver without offering any alternative technological support to prevent the fatal consequences of human error.

...The President of ADIF, Gonzalo Ferre, speaking to Efe Agency, has maintained a completely different position. He notes that in the fateful four kilometers you cannot have anything other than ASFA analog signaling and also, this is more than adequate..."That is the role of the driver on the train", ie "to control speed" because "otherwise he would be a passenger"

Despite the official information provided by ADIF that ASFA Digital beacons are still under development, all sources have confirmed that this system is fully operational as a support system in all high-speed lines in the Mediterranean Corridor and in many parts of the line between Madrid and A Coruña, where the accident occurred.
This is also interesting, from here http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ash-train.html
Quote:
the final ETCS balise on the high-speed line, which is situated 4km from the crash site, would only inform the driver that he is exiting an ETCS section, that all automatic driving modes are disabled, and that manual driving mode is active. This means that if ETCS was in use the accident may still have occurred, and any train could in theory enter the 80km/h section at 200km/h. Drivers of Avant trains brake manually on the section where the accident occurred because the driver interface does not display a braking curve in the transition section between ETCS and Afsa.

The train passed Asfa distant signal E7 4km before the derailment, and E7 150m from the crash site.
Is it possible the driver had previously driven trains using ECTS on that route, and forgot there would be no final ECTS signal as his prompt to brake?
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Old July 28th, 2013, 08:29 PM   #1786
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interesting, but still, how is possible he drove 60 times this same train through this same route...?
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Old July 28th, 2013, 08:48 PM   #1787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
4 km at 200 km/h is just some 72 seconds. I guess that it can easily happen to lose concentration for one minute.
72 seconds is quite a while ... had the engineer not been distracted, then what track/side condition exist that hadn't tipped him off that something was amiss?! Moreover, if this very approach, configuration itself outside the town is to be only temporary until the anticipated, forthcoming high-speed link, then why was no blaring trackside signage installed preceding the bend?

This crash itself also stinks ... planners, engineers, and ultimately the certifiers, licensors ought to be investigated.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 08:53 PM   #1788
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Also, it says
Quote:
The train passed Asfa distant signal E7 4km before the derailment, and E7 150m from the crash site.
I wonder if he somehow missed Asfa distant signal E7 and then at signal E7 he realised his mistake, and that was when he suddenly said he was doing 190 and was going to derail?
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Old July 28th, 2013, 09:04 PM   #1789
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source

"También habla de la velocidad del tren: «A partir de Ourense tuve una sensación rara porque iba muy rápido. Justo antes de salir del túnel, el indicador ponía que íbamos a 210»."


in spanish but unless we start to doubt about the victims also, the train was speeding over 200kmh.... ASFA surely advertised him... so?
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:08 PM   #1790
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I'm curious about the crashworthiness of those lightweight, articulated talgo coaches. I rode one in the USA and found no comfort travelling in it ... bloody things swung ALL over the place, coz changing coach proved to be pointless ...
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:19 PM   #1791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider48 View Post
Also, it says

I wonder if he somehow missed Asfa distant signal E7 and then at signal E7 he realised his mistake, and that was when he suddenly said he was doing 190 and was going to derail?
El Pais has reported that he acknowledged an audible warning at the first signal.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:24 PM   #1792
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Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
I'm curious about the crashworthiness of those lightweight, articulated talgo coaches. I rode one in the USA and found no comfort travelling in it ... bloody things swung ALL over the place, coz changing coach proved to be pointless ...
I expect the condition of the track had more to do with the swaying than the weight of the car. That's why you need better track for faster operation.

As for crashworthiness, building a rail car to hold together in a 200 kph wreck wouldn't help the passengers much. You just don't want to derail at that speed and are better off investing in ways to prevent it, in my opinion.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:15 PM   #1793
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source

"There were unconfirmed reports that the driver may have been talking on the phone or texting while he was at the controls in the moments before the accident at 8.42pm last Wednesday".
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:25 PM   #1794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GH1618 View Post
building a rail car to hold together in a 200 kph wreck wouldn't help the passengers
You must be joking, right?!?
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Last edited by trainrover; July 28th, 2013 at 11:30 PM.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 11:59 PM   #1795
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It's disturbing that the driver be arrested before analysis of the black box be performed. Isn't there any law (there) that could be exercised so as to prevent a potential suspect from leaving town, from leaving the country/union?

I gather that the ¾-to-2-hour response time by emergency medical services there is now being (harshly?) criticized.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 12:10 AM   #1796
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You must be joking, right?!?
Nope. An indestructible steel box comes to a sudden stop. The passengers inside get mashed against the inside front wall. Possibly seat harness (not simple belt) and all rear facing seats may help, but imagine the fuss that would cause. Notice how flimsy modern motorcars are with the requirements for crumple zones and graceful disintegration.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 12:53 AM   #1797
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If ADIF are claiming officially that digital beacons are still being developed then they are lying. This smells of trying to deflect blame.

It still doesn't answer why ERTMS wasn't installed up to the point where it could slow a train to 80km/h for the corner.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 01:09 AM   #1798
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According to Dutch media, the driver has been sent home after questioning in court. However, his passport has been taken, he has to report at the courthouse every week and he is not allowed to drive trains for the time being.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 01:14 AM   #1799
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
It's disturbing that the driver be arrested before analysis of the black box be performed. Isn't there any law (there) that could be exercised so as to prevent a potential suspect from leaving town, from leaving the country/union?
He has been released with charges, that means that he will be free until the court decides if he is inocent or guilty or until evidences of risk of escape are found.

He was arrested in the hospital soon after the accident and he remained in the hospital monitored by the police until when he received the hospital discharge and was detained; later the police led him to the judge who decided to release him pending trial.

Edit: AlexNL is right according to Spanish media.

Last edited by OriK; July 29th, 2013 at 02:16 AM.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 01:42 AM   #1800
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Was bail posted, do you know

Edit: Never mind I've just read that the judge decided no bail necessary, plus the driver's charges are provisional.


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Nope
You ain't the one I'm asking
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