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Old July 29th, 2013, 01:55 AM   #1801
AlexNL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
Edit: AxelNL is right according to Spanish media.
Alex, not Axel.

I'm curious about why the court took the decision to send him home for the time being. To me, it sounds like the court is not going to go along blindly with the blame-game being played by the media (a good thing!).

Appearantly, the driver declared that he was unable to brake as the train was approaching the curve. There are three braking systems on board the train, the chance of all of them failing is quite slim. Also, Renfe declared that the train had been in the maintenance workshop just before it entered service.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 02:05 AM   #1802
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So now we know that

"In the fateful stretch of four km separating the end of the infrastructure of the high speed line between Ourense and Santiago de Compostela, safety equipment installed on the track, two sets of beacons, are ASFA Analog, a technology developed by Renfe and Dimetronic in the 60s of last century. This information was confirmed on Saturday by an official spokesman of ADIF, who justified this fact by saying "The ASFA Digital beacons are being developed by companies Dimetronic and Indra and are not yet available."


The report on Friday in the International Rail Journal also said

IRJ has learned from a senior source at Renfe that while ETCS is operable on the Ourense – Santiago high-speed line, class 730 sets of the type involved in the derailment operate exclusively on Asfa on this route despite the fact that they are equipped with ETCS. ...The reasons for this have not yet been firmly established.

The train passed Asfa distant signal E7 4km before the derailment, and E7 150m from the crash site.

Both Asfa and the more advanced Asfa Digital are automatic train protection (ATP) systems, but the latter (AD) provides the driver with information on braking curves while standard Asfa only triggers an emergency brake application if a signal has been passed at danger.

The operation of both systems is linked to the interlockings but not to speed limits, which must be observed by the driver at all times.
This means that when a route is set on a main line with signals showing a green aspect, no command is triggered onboard the train to adjust the speed.

The accident could only have been prevented by the Asfa signal before the curve where the derailment occurred if the following signal, positioned on the approach to Santiago station, was at danger.

A second driver was onboard the train, seated in coach 7. In Spain trains normally operate with only one driver in the cab except in the event of an Asfa failure."

Conclusions?

The Avilia train fleet only operates with standard ASFA (although it is equipped with ETCS it does not use it. We do not know why this is).

The train was passing over a stretch of line with ASFA safety equipment which seems to have been of the older non digital type. This means that no braking signal is sent to the drivers cab unless there is a red signal ahead. If it is set at green no signal is sent.

It has also been reported that no speeding alarm will be triggered unless the speed exceeds 200kph.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 02:18 AM   #1803
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Some couple on board the train have been now twice reported as being astonished that the in-coach speed monitor displayed 210KPH mere seconds before their crash.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 02:34 AM   #1804
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I was watching this video all over again, and did not notice any sign to slow him down to 80km/h.

Around km 80 (where he should start to brake) there should(?) be a pre-warning that in 4 kilometers he needs to expect a speed of 80km/h. Also did not notice anything.

So what slows him down?

I would put a yellow sign of size 6x8 meters minimally and three in a row to warn drivers for slowing, especially when the curve is not secured with ETCS (ends in km 80), not saying that these trains not using it at all on this line.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 02:42 AM   #1805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Alex, not Axel.

I'm curious about why the court took the decision to send him home for the time being. To me, it sounds like the court is not going to go along blindly with the blame-game being played by the media (a good thing!).

Appearantly, the driver declared that he was unable to brake as the train was approaching the curve. There are three braking systems on board the train, the chance of all of them failing is quite slim. Also, Renfe declared that the train had been in the maintenance workshop just before it entered service.
Ups! Sorry :P

According to the Spanish media, the driver declared that he lose contentration and therefore didn't brake on time.

The driver has rejected to protest about the path or the state of the infrastructure.
-----
From what I've read: It seems that the train was running on ASFA the entire way...

The max speeds of the train are:

240Km/h on HSL
220Km/h on conventional lines
180Km/h on conventional lines when powered by diesel.

As this train was not allowed to use ERTMS on the previous stretch, it was using ASFA.

ASFA is a good but old system that requires the driver to take care of the speed of the train all the time and therefore the maximum speed allowed by the system is 200Km/h wich is considered to be a safe limit to allow the driver to read the signals (that's why the Albacete-Alicante HSL does still have a speed limit of 200Km/h).

ASFA trains are also able to detect if the driver is able to run the train (the driver have to press a button when requested by the train).

It seems but I'm not sure that the drivers are required to confirm that they have received the signals by pressing another button.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 02:43 AM   #1806
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As much as I love trains, had I myself been on the train as featured here passing the wreckage, I'd have been SO spooked:


clickable...
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Old July 29th, 2013, 02:48 AM   #1807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshoneyrose View Post
It has also been reported that no speeding alarm will be triggered unless the speed exceeds 200kph.
That's not correct. It is the automatic emergency brake that is triggered if the speed exceeds 200 kph. It has been reported by some sources that the operator received audible warnings of excessive speed and acknowledged them.

I'll wait for an official report to document the events, however. There is too much conflicting information out there to be certain of what happened
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Old July 29th, 2013, 05:12 AM   #1808
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I still think 200km/h is too fast to warrant reading of critical signaling posted on poorly lit tunnels.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 05:31 AM   #1809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoSi™ View Post
So what slows him down?
The engineer would have a plan for the route which might refer to the distance markers. He might get speed indicators from the ASFA system. Also, I'm wondering if those chevron signs, similar to downward-pointing arrows, are a visual indication to slow down. These are just my guesses.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 07:08 AM   #1810
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The engineer admited his culpability and says that there was not any problem with the infrastructure or security systems...


El maquinista admite su “despiste”

En su relato, que comenzó a las ocho de la tarde de ayer en los juzgados de Santiago, el conductor admitió su responsabilidad en el siniestro. Reconoció que entró a 190 kilómetros por hora en la curva de Angrois, un tramo limitado a 80, por “un despiste” y que esa fue la razón del descarrilamiento. Evitó quejarse del trazado, las condiciones de la vía o el estado del tren, según fuentes judiciales.


"In his story, which began at eight o'clock yesterday afternoon at the courthouse in Santiago, the driver admitted responsibility for the incident. He acknowledged that was overspeeding at 190 kilometers per hour in Angrois curve, a section limited to 80, because of "an oversight" and that was the reason for the derailment. Avoided to complain about the route, road conditions or status of the train, according to judicial sources."


Spain train crash driver 'admits he was reckless'

The driver of the train involved in Spain's worst rail disaster in almost 70 years was freed on bail on Sunday night after reportedly admitting to a judge that he had behaved recklessly.




the only thing that left to know is why... till now it seems he was texting at the phone.
his movil phone is in custody by the court.

Last edited by TimeOff; July 29th, 2013 at 08:18 AM.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 08:37 AM   #1811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
ASFA is a good but old system that requires the driver to take care of the speed of the train all the time and therefore the maximum speed allowed by the system is 200Km/h wich is considered to be a safe limit to allow the driver to read the signals (that's why the Albacete-Alicante HSL does still have a speed limit of 200Km/h).
I think 200kph is to fast for the driver to reliable read trackside signals. And many railways seem to agree, as in quite a few countries Cab signalling is mandatory for a train to be permitted to run above 160kph...
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Old July 29th, 2013, 09:01 AM   #1812
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So 80 people can die because one driver forgets how far along the track he already is. This is a cluster**** of epic proportions. Let's hope this will lead to proper improvements in safety infrastructure so this can never happen again.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 09:55 AM   #1813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post

the only thing that left to know is why... till now it seems he was texting at the phone.
his movil phone is in custody by the court.
Let's wait the enquiry now. Remember the Tenerife plane crash. The flight were supposed to have been watching football. Turned out to be false in the end...
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Old July 29th, 2013, 11:26 AM   #1814
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If someone want to enter in the railways accident thread will read about all the network, responsible declarations and so on.

Despite it is not in English, any translator would be enough and there is a lot of information
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Old July 29th, 2013, 03:24 PM   #1815
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Last update. Driver faces to judge and says he thought he was in the last before curve. Speed was allowed to 220 until 400m before that point
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Old July 29th, 2013, 03:39 PM   #1816
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Do they rely on visual (landscape) cues to control speed? That would be extremely crazy. Especially with all the tunnels and short viaduts.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 04:05 PM   #1817
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Suburbanist: That's what I said too. It is easy to get 'lost' on the monotonic 80km long track with lack of landscape. It was mentioned by other members here too.

Personally I think that having this curve unsecured by ETCS was only question of a time for this disaster to happen. Yet, it only took little more than a year.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 04:06 PM   #1818
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So do I. One and a half year....
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Old July 29th, 2013, 04:23 PM   #1819
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Even if S730's are approved to use ETCS on Ourense - Santiago line, it might remind him 4 kilometers ahead of curve (that's where ETCS ends, and where he should start braking) that ETCS is switching off and all automatic systems are now disabled.

He might realize where he actually is (and start braking).

EDIT: The safest way to secure it now will be approve S730's ETCS as fast as possible and program the line that at the end of ETCS will be let's say 100km/h. Okay, it will add some time to travel time, but it will be much safer to approach Santiago.

Last edited by RoSi™; July 29th, 2013 at 04:29 PM.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #1820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Do they rely on visual (landscape) cues to control speed? That would be extremely crazy. Especially with all the tunnels and short viaduts.
Well this heavily depends from one network to another. In some countries
where speed limits are simple enough, the speeds are marked on the ground
with, usually, a first sign to announce the speed reduction and later another
sign to mark the execution point. This is the case at least in Belgium, and also
(if i remember well) in the Netherlands.

Where this is more complicated - for example where the speed to apply
depends on the type of rolling stock used - this is not marked on the ground
but rather on the schedule of the train, printed on paper, that the driver
brings with him in the cab. Sometimes on the ground it is marked with
special signs, like the "Z" and "R" boards that you find in France. Sometimes
it's just a kilometric point that marks the begin and end of a restricted speed
zone, or a particular point like a bridge.

For this specific case I don't remember, but it should be visible on the
"normal speed" video that has been posted a few days earlier.
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