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Old July 29th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #1821
RoSi™
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MarcVD: If you refer to my earlier post, I can't see any speed restriction signs, so it must be related to kilometric point (as other says).

Last edited by RoSi™; July 29th, 2013 at 04:58 PM. Reason: typo
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Old July 29th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #1822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Do they rely on visual (landscape) cues to control speed? That would be extremely crazy. Especially with all the tunnels and short viaduts.
There is no way that they are relaying on the drivers to visually recognize signals. At high speed if the driver takes his eyes off the track for a couple of seconds a critical sign can be missed.

In China for lines that's not equipped with CTCS (similar to ETCS) the cabin is equipped with what's called locomotive monitoring system, which is essentially a GPS equipped alarm clock. Before the train departs the driver inserts a IC card that has the route's information, including speed limits at various spots. When the train reaches those areas alarms will sound if speed exceeds the limit. The IC cards' information is uploaded by dispatcher before the starting of the shift. Of course this system can malfunction too, mainly due to dispatcher's failure to upload the correct information, which is exactly what lead to the April 28, 2008 derailment due to speeding (131km/h at a 80km/h zone).
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Old July 29th, 2013, 07:06 PM   #1823
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Creating blaring trackside signage for higher speeds is indeed possible ... the creative will is what appears to have been missing
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Old July 29th, 2013, 11:38 PM   #1824
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I think EU should use the aftermath of this accident to mandate ERTMS for ALL train operations within EU within 10 years maximum.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 11:42 PM   #1825
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I think that EU should get involved in investigation of this crash somehow.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 11:44 PM   #1826
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Isn't there the restriction of catenary?

In my region there are two lines without catenary and neither have asfa....


But if possible, I strongly agree with you
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Old July 30th, 2013, 06:22 AM   #1827
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Quote:
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I think EU should use the aftermath of this accident to mandate ERTMS for ALL train operations within EU within 10 years maximum.
Sure. Lets kill passenger rail, just like in the US...
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Old July 30th, 2013, 06:33 AM   #1828
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Sure. Lets kill passenger rail, just like in the US...
How does ERTMS would kill passenger rail? They even have a "low budget" ERTMS-regional protocol for less trafficker railways.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 08:31 AM   #1829
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Quote:
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I think EU should use the aftermath of this accident to mandate ERTMS for ALL train operations within EU within 10 years maximum.
That would be a great waste of money for the countries that already have systems that do their job just fine.

What they should do is set a baseline of what functions a train control system must support. If your legacy system doesn't support all the requirements then you can mandate a quick changeover.

First step should be to mandate that all newly built rolling stock (even existing models!) must be equiped with ETCS.

Second should be harmonisation of all rail regulations. One of the major problems encountered with ETCS is that almost every country has it's own regulations, which can even be completely contradictory with another country.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 10:10 AM   #1830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
How does ERTMS would kill passenger rail? They even have a "low budget" ERTMS-regional protocol for less trafficker railways.
Mandates handed down by bureaucrats are one of the factors that killed passenger rail in the US. In the US the government at on time mandated ATP for speeds 80 mph and higher, regardless of traffic levels. Most railways could not afford to install this, and so reduced the speed of their trains in stead, making them even more uncompetitive. In the end this drove people further away from trains and in to unsafer cars...
Or how a supposed safety measure actually ends up killing people...
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Old July 30th, 2013, 10:12 AM   #1831
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Quote:
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What they should do is set a baseline of what functions a train control system must support. If your legacy system doesn't support all the requirements then you can mandate a quick changeover.
One example of a mandate that would make sense is requiring that trains running above a certain speed (let the experts decide on that), use a train protection system that enforces also speed limits, not just signals.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 04:40 PM   #1832
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Quote:
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I don't see what it the point of having two drivers. It would create enormous CRM (cockipt resource management) issues. That happens on airplanes, but airplanes do need co-pilots because the impairment of a pilot means the plane can't possible land. On trains, impairment of a driver should mean the train stops. Might be a P.I.T.A. if it stops in the middle of a long tunnel, but loss of a driver ability to control the train shouldn't mean anything more than an emergency stop.

CRM-related issues are serious. For instance, drivers might think the other has managed to take note of something. You'd need specific procedures like those for flying airplanes and standardized cross-checked lists.
Well in Austria there are exactly two situations where two drivers are required. A broken dead man's switch or in matters of a detour where the main driver is not familiar with the track.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 08:15 PM   #1833
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Spain train driver 'on phone' at time of deadly crash

The train driver in last week's crash in Spain was talking on the phone when it derailed, investigators say.

The train was travelling at 153km/h (95mph) at the time, investigators at the Court of Justice of Galicia said.

Francisco Jose Garzon Amo was speaking to members of staff at the state-owned railway company, Renfe, they added.

Crash investigators had opened the train's "black-box" data recorder to find the cause of the crash, which left 79 people dead.

"It seems that the driver consulted a map or paper document”

Moments before the accident the train was travelling at a speed of 192km/h (119mph), the court said in a statement.

Investigators say the brakes were activated shortly before the crash.

The speed limit on the sharp bend where the train derailed was set at 80km/h (49mph).

"Minutes before the train came off the tracks he received a call on his work phone to get indications on the route he had to take to get to Ferrol. From the content of the conversation and background noise it seems that the driver consulted a map or paper document," a court statement said.

Mr Garzon is suspected of reckless homicide, but he has not yet been formally charged.

He was released from custody in Santiago de Compostela, where the crash occurred, on Sunday but remains under court supervision.

He must appear before a court once a week and was not allowed to leave Spain without permission.

His passport has been surrendered to the judge and his licence to drive a train has been suspended.

Under Spanish law, his legal status is that he is suspected of being involved in 79 counts of reckless homicide but has not been formally charged.

But officials said he had admitted negligence by being careless when rounding a bend too fast.

All eight carriages of the train careered off the tracks into a concrete wall as they sped around the curve on the express route between Madrid and the port city of Ferrol on the Galician coast.

On Monday, a mass was held in the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela.

Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, along with the heir to the Spanish crown, Prince Felipe, and his wife Princess Letizia, joined the grieving families and local residents in the cathedral as the city's archbishop prayed for the dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23507348

Ugh.. so IF this is true.. company itself might played a part in this accident by distracting him of what he suppose to do at first place. I understand plans change.. etc.. but I think there are other means of communication that are safer than a gd phones in a cab of a driver.

Last edited by webeagle12; July 30th, 2013 at 08:23 PM.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 08:29 PM   #1834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webeagle12 View Post
Ugh.. so IF this is true.. company itself might played a part in this accident by distracting him of what he suppose to do at first place. I understand plans change.. etc.. but I think there are other means of communication that are safer than a gd phones in a cab of a driver.
Or they called him to ask him wtf he was still going so fast.... Were RENFE in the capability to stop the train?

Too early to draw conclusions.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #1835
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Quote:
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Or they called him to ask him wtf he was still going so fast....

Too early to draw conclusions.
read an article.. (and i said IF this is true)

"Minutes before the train came off the tracks he received a call on his work phone to get indications on the route he had to take to get to Ferrol. From the content of the conversation and background noise it seems that the driver consulted a map or paper document," a court statement said.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 08:43 PM   #1836
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From the very first moment we know that the driver called Renfe just before the accident, that's how we know that he was going at 190Km/h.

Finally the train derailed at 153Km/h... I think it would have been safer to try to handle the curve than breaking that hard in the middle of it... but of course, I'm not an expert, and there are more curves ahead so it was also very risky.
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Old July 30th, 2013, 09:26 PM   #1837
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I'll try to have last updated news and post here.

Sorry, I'm with app and it's quite hars to write a link.

Btw as far as I know he had to start reducing speed four km before but not signals... Just writen in the route book.


It doesn't matter about who or which failt. Every day I'm quite sure that it was a matter of time to have an accident there
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Old July 30th, 2013, 10:43 PM   #1838
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Fresh news!!!

It is known that in the moment of the accident, driver was talking with the lane management control site.
Several minutes he received a call in his business mobile from a Renfe officer and later, several noises like checking papers are heard.

This audio is recorded and now kept by the judge who has acknoledgement of all the data since today


It is absolutely forbidden to use a mobile if only one driver and train running.
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Old July 31st, 2013, 12:14 AM   #1839
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Quote:
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It is absolutely forbidden to use a mobile if only one driver and train running.
Then RENFE should not have called him while the train was still running...
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Old July 31st, 2013, 12:37 AM   #1840
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I just make a sum up of a Spanish thread.

Drivers musn't pick up the mobile and officers or other company staff musn't call drivers.

But let's be in driver's body. He receives a call from an officer.
It could be to aware him from a danger, an emergency, an order to stop the train, an advice of anything in the line or in the station or who knows....

But if it wasn't so important, an officer wouldn't call to a driver when he knows that it is forbidden.

Too many questions and Spanish forumers think that someone (not only driver) is to face the judge.


By the way, maybe this topic wil be in stand by because on thursday prime minister is to face all lawyers to talk about corruption and his ex-treasurer, who is pointing to him, nowadaya in prison.

So... Maybe few news for a while.
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