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Old August 2nd, 2013, 02:04 PM   #1901
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So they talked for almost two two minutes up to seconds before the derailment.

It seems that indeed this did help to distract the driver. But should it be possible that a distraction can cause a disaster. I think not. Having no good security system and a lack of good signaling seem to have an equal share of blame.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 06:07 PM   #1902
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According to Dutch media the driver has admitted to receiving 3 warnings (the article doesn't mention it, but by ASFA I guess) in the 2 minutes before the crash. According to the black box of the train the last one was 250m before the entering the curve at which moment the train travelled at 195 km/h.
Okay, talking on the phone can be distracting, but he DID manage to push the ASFA confirm button at every warning, but why didn't he actually brake?
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 06:29 PM   #1903
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A prominent scientist reported ages ago that driving and talking on a telephone never mix, hands-free or not ... probably applies to train driving too.
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Last edited by trainrover; August 4th, 2013 at 05:18 PM.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 07:01 PM   #1904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
According to Dutch media the driver has admitted to receiving 3 warnings (the article doesn't mention it, but by ASFA I guess) in the 2 minutes before the crash. According to the black box of the train the last one was 250m before the entering the curve at which moment the train travelled at 195 km/h.
Okay, talking on the phone can be distracting, but he DID manage to push the ASFA confirm button at every warning, but why didn't he actually brake?
One of them was a "free way" alarm that doesn't have to be acknowledged but wich should have been a signal for the driver that the curve was near.

I don't know about the others... (I've heard about 2 warnings).

Here there is a reconstruction of the accident, in Spanish:
http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/t...dente/1971712/
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 12:40 AM   #1905
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So, did ASFA warn him to slow down?
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 02:00 PM   #1906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoSi™ View Post
So, did ASFA warn him to slow down?
More importantly: Why was there no system in place that forced the train to slow down...
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 03:35 PM   #1907
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I'm finding it difficult to follow the investigation, especially considering that multiple translations of occupations have been used. I've read different reports of train driver calling the dispatcher, station manager calling the train driver, train conductor (meaning: an auxiliary employee who stays in the train, often checking tickets and giving the driver the 'platform clear' sign for the driver to proceed closing doors) calling train driver?

Could someone explain me who called whom on the phone during that train ride preceding the accident?
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 05:55 PM   #1908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
More importantly: Why was there no system in place that forced the train to slow down...
Exactly! That's what I was asking few posts earlier. But media kidding the information now, that he received and acknowledged three signals to slow him down. Where from? From ASFA? That system does not care about speeds at all. ETCS should protect the most critical part of this track. It didn't. Moreover, S730s should be certified to use it (as soon as possible).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Could someone explain me who called whom on the phone during that train ride preceding the accident?
It was a ticket inspector calling the driver on company mobile phone (as in-train telephone was down(?)) to ask which platform they gonna call at second to last station (forget the name) of route before Ferrol. All this because he want to help the family with children to get easier of the platform/station.

At least that is what i understand from all that informations that are coming from Spain.

Last edited by RoSi™; August 3rd, 2013 at 06:04 PM. Reason: reply to Suburbanist
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 06:41 PM   #1909
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Civil works ministry is to make a consideration about all lines and its safety (even where asfa doesn't exist)
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 06:46 PM   #1910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Civil works ministry is to make a consideration about all lines and its safety (even where asfa doesn't exist)
Hope that Santiago's curve will be first to consider.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 06:56 PM   #1911
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The DR is suing the driver.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 07:04 PM   #1912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
The DR is suing the driver.
Maybe it´s so obvious that I don´t see it, but what is the DR?
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 07:14 PM   #1913
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For what I've read so far the train was travelling at 210/190 km with a a slown doiwn to 80 km/h in about 4km section.

The train had to pass from one high speed section where the train speed was controlled by an advance electronic system to another section where the train control system seems to be inadequate or primitive.

The driver had only 60-80 seconds to intervene with little or no allowance for mistakes.


Perhaps would have been different if the train had two three sections to slow down from 190/210 to 150-120 km/h and then to 80 km/h.

Perhaps the safety measures implemented on the last section of the line were inadequate.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 07:31 PM   #1914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoSi™ View Post
So, did ASFA warn him to slow down?
As far as my limited knowledge about details on train safety systems in Spain (I work in the aviation industry), ASFA does not issue warnings... It's only a red/green system that will stop (not slow down) the train if you overrun a beacon linked to a stop signal or driving faster than 200Km/h.

The warnings he received were plain "clear signal" warnings that indicated the tracks selected ahead (A Grandeira detour).

Apparently they have installed such beacons now in that particular curve limiting the speed at 30Km/h (so it can be activated by overspeed, but it will not warn in forehand, just stop the train if overrun). Several media reports refer (El Pais: Train accident forces automatic braking installation in risky track sections)

Mi opinion: The "safety system" approach would definetly have included this in the original design, humans make mistakes and relying completely on the driver's awarenes is unsafe.

Regards,
Robert

Last edited by FlyingRob; August 3rd, 2013 at 07:38 PM.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 08:12 PM   #1915
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As translated from here by translator:

ADIF technicians have placed three beacons ASFA system with staggered speed limitations. The first (accompanied by a poster installed in the track) is at km 79.769, and limits the speed to 160 km / hour. Another beacon placed at km 81/669 (about three miles before the crash), with its accompanying poster, limits the speed to 30 km / hour, and the latter, in turn, is protected by another previous mark (called notice), approximately 300 meters, which limits the speed to 60 km / hour. If the train exceeds the speed limit, the ASFA system will trip and automatically brake the train, avoiding accidents such as occurred on July 24.

So how did they manage to check/limit the speed with ASFA system.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 08:19 PM   #1916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRob View Post
As far as my limited knowledge about details on train safety systems in Spain (I work in the aviation industry), ASFA does not issue warnings... It's only a red/green system that will stop (not slow down) the train if you overrun a beacon linked to a stop signal or driving faster than 200Km/h.

The warnings he received were plain "clear signal" warnings that indicated the tracks selected ahead (A Grandeira detour).

Apparently they have installed such beacons now in that particular curve limiting the speed at 30Km/h (so it can be activated by overspeed, but it will not warn in forehand, just stop the train if overrun). Several media reports refer (El Pais: Train accident forces automatic braking installation in risky track sections)

1-
Mi opinion: The "safety system" approach would definetly have included this in the original design, humans make mistakes and relying completely on the driver's awarenes is unsafe.Regards,
Robert
1-
I agree.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 09:17 PM   #1917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
For what I've read so far the train was travelling at 210/190 km with a a slown doiwn to 80 km/h in about 4km section.

The train had to pass from one high speed section where the train speed was controlled by an advance electronic system to another section where the train control system seems to be inadequate or primitive.

The driver had only 60-80 seconds to intervene with little or no allowance for mistakes.

Perhaps would have been different if the train had two three sections to slow down from 190/210 to 150-120 km/h and then to 80 km/h.

Perhaps the safety measures implemented on the last section of the line were inadequate.
To be exactly... 200 to 80 (not able to run over that speed with this system)

Yesterday the link to the Spanish thread was posted. Today a new forumer wrote a full technical post about analogic asfa, digital asfa and ertms because he works in the business.

I invite you to enter and read even with any online translator. It could be one of the most revealing post.


In any case... As everyone can see... I live in Zaragoza. Look this station and the HSL to Madrid. It has some narrow curves and trains change from 300 (not 200 but 300) to 70 in a couple of km. Huge traffic and no incidents since 2003 when was opened.
But.... It has ertms!!!!!!
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 09:19 PM   #1918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
But.... It has ertms!!!!!!
That is exactly why it has no incident indeed.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 09:27 PM   #1919
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Yeah and we have, indeed, a short stretch of a one way only track.... But with ertms (yes, for several km all Madrid-Barcelona trains and some more run on a one way track)

I really invite you to see my city in google maps and compare curves.
Furthermore, message about asfa and ertms is quite interesting.
I am sorry, i am with a mobile and cannot link but some messages above you'll find the link
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 09:32 PM   #1920
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More... One Spanish forumer made this question:

If you are in a commuter train or undergrounf (or tramway even and urban buses) you are adviced about next station.
Is driver who activate it or.... Automatically??????

Why a system can advice underground passengers of next station and driver does not have more software help to drive safetely?
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