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Old August 3rd, 2013, 09:47 PM   #1921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
Haiti's neighbour
The Dominican Republic is suing the driver?

That reminds me of the Castelldefels accident, when the Ecuadorian government sued the driver too.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 09:49 PM   #1922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Furthermore, message about asfa and ertms is quite interesting.
Translating from spanish via translator is giving me headache / but I am trying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I really invite you to see my city in google maps and compare curves.
I will do. I am even watching a on cab video video from Barcelona to Madrid, but I am not as far as Zaragoza yet.

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Why a system can advice underground passengers of next station and driver does not have more software help to drive safetely?
Very nice question indeed.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 09:57 PM   #1923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
To be exactly... 200 to 80 (not able to run over that speed with this system)

Yesterday the link to the Spanish thread was posted. Today a new forumer wrote a full technical post about analogic asfa, digital asfa and ertms because he works in the business.

I invite you to enter and read even with any online translator. It could be one of the most revealing post.


In any case... As everyone can see... I live in Zaragoza. Look this station and the HSL to Madrid. It has some narrow curves and trains change from 300 (not 200 but 300) to 70 in a couple of km. Huge traffic and no incidents since 2003 when was opened.

2-
But.... It has ertms!!!!!!
Alserrod,

In my post I have alreay said that to break from 200 to 80 km/h in only 4 kms, and without any automatic train control system is not totally safe, because it does not take into account any possible distraction of the drivers.

Human attention span and human reflexes/ response varies during the day and people (or drivers) can have fluctuations of the attention span, on the degrees of alertness etc. Also , we humam, tend to be hypnotized when we travel on motorvays or tunnel, or on a boring landscape.

We can be also affected by micro-sleeps.

Also the familiarity with the route might have had a negative impact. If the driver had been new to the route he would have had more adrenalin in his body, and he would have been more alert.


The driver had only 70-80 seconds to apply the brakes and to slow down the train from 190 to 80 km/h.

Probably he was briefly distracted by a combination of factors: tirendess and/ or boredom ( the landscape seems to be boring), and a telephone call.

Therefore he applied the brakes a little late, perhaps only 20 seconds late....


The fact that the safety measures were inadequate has been indirectctly confirmed by the new measures implemented in the last few days/few hours.

The ERTMS (or any other adequate train control system) slows down an overspeeding train and calculates the correct breaking curve in relation to a given curve, or speed restriction, taking into account many other factors, including the weight of the train, its speed, etc.

Perhaps is significative the fact that after the accident Renfe or ADIF have installed the ETRMS on the said 4 km section, and now the speed is reduced (automatically, if necessary) from 200 km/h to 160 km/h in the first 2 km of that section, then, in the following 2km, it is further reduced from 160 to 30 km/h!

Last edited by joseph1951; August 6th, 2013 at 01:49 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 10:13 PM   #1924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
...after the accident Renfe or ADIF have installed the ETRMS on the said 4 km section...
Yes, and this need to be supported by certify S730 ETCS on this track as soon as possible.

Or, they may program ETCS so on the last beacon (4km ahead of curve) will trains need to go let's say 100km/h. I know, it will add some travel time, but approach to Santiego will be much safer.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 10:20 PM   #1925
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I know and I agree
I just gave another stuff matter of opinion

By the way... Driver hadn't 70-80 minutes to brake :-/
They are exactly 72 (seconds)
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 10:25 PM   #1926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoSi™ View Post
Yes, and this need to be supported by certify S730 ETCS on this track as soon as possible.

Or, they may program ETCS so on the last beacon (4km ahead of curve) will trains need to go let's say 100km/h. I know, it will add some travel time, but approach to Santiego will be much safer.
Perhaps it will add 1~2 minutes to the joureny time but it will also add considerable safety.

I do not think it is vital to risk loosing passenger lives in order to save 1~2 minute in journey time...


IMHO it is better to arrive to destination 1~2 minutes later but alive than to arrive 1~2 minutes earlier but dead.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 10:27 PM   #1927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoSi™ View Post

Translating from spanish via translator is giving me headache / but I am trying.

I will do. I am even watching a on cab video video from Barcelona to Madrid, but I am not as far as Zaragoza yet.

Very nice question indeed.
In the video the most interesting part would be about 1h20m after Barcelona. Two tracks join only in one and cross east-west Zaragoza. Just at the begining you will see a commuter train station separates only by a little fence and inside the tunnel.

After calling at Zaragoza, curve to left and a softer one ti right. After there, able to run 300 again.

As seen... Not easy area... But ertms and no troubles.

Furthermore. Trains from Barcelona to anywhere in the north of Spain (Irun, Vigo and all in the middle) cross that tunnel and change to conventional line after Zaragoza station.
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Old August 3rd, 2013, 10:28 PM   #1928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I know and I agree
I just gave another stuff matter of opinion

By the way... Driver hadn't 70-80 minutes to brake :-/
They are exactly 72 (seconds)
Even worse!

72 seconds from 190 to 80 is too little, it's almost an emergency brake, with little or no margin for error.

Last edited by joseph1951; August 6th, 2013 at 01:51 AM.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 12:52 AM   #1929
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The DR has hired a Spanish judge --who was expelled by Franco and is (one of) Assange's lawyer(s)-- to represent them, a minister of their's who died on the train, and the deceased's family.
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Last edited by trainrover; August 4th, 2013 at 01:11 AM.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 01:00 AM   #1930
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Quote:
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DR, Haiti's neighbour
Your source, please?
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Old August 4th, 2013, 01:11 AM   #1931
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No, thank you.

His family name happens to match the engineer's.

BTW, my initial post identifying that country's name has gone missing, plus I've revised my prior post here to be deleted of its intial appearance as quoted by you in your own last post.
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Last edited by trainrover; August 4th, 2013 at 01:23 AM.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 01:26 PM   #1932
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If they have installed more beacons to slow trains down coming into this curve before the conclusion of the enquiry, isn't that an admission of guilt?
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Old August 4th, 2013, 01:34 PM   #1933
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Quote:
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If they have installed more beacons to slow trains down coming into this curve before the conclusion of the enquiry, isn't that an admission of guilt?
Not necessarily. Ultimately, safety decisions are almost always a trade-off of costs and results. I lean on spending a lot of resources even if the safety improvements are thin - I'd not mean spending money on basis of, say, € 20 million/Euro per life potentially saved.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 01:47 PM   #1934
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But this would not be anything like that cost. It could have even been a free reprogramming of the ones up the line. In the context of an HSL 3 beacons is nothing. Not the cost of a crashed train and certainly not the cost of the compensation they will have to pay. It was negligent cost cutting.

I am a big fan of what Spain has done with HSR, but before I ride on it again, I would like to know where similar safety gaps exist and what will be done about it.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:39 PM   #1935
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Quote:
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I am a big fan of what Spain has done with HSR, but before I ride on it again, I would like to know where similar safety gaps exist and what will be done about it.
Do you know if your roof is 100% stable and it's not going to fall on you any minute? When you walk on intersection, do you know 100% that driver brakes will work?

Your demands are useless. Get over it, shit ALWAYS will happens. You fix one thing, something else will go wrong, either driver or mechanical.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 07:50 PM   #1936
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Then by your logic we could scrap all safety systems to save money and let nature take its course.
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Old August 4th, 2013, 08:29 PM   #1937
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No, of course...

But when I drive a car sometimes I see "black spots" signaled.

Why are they black spots? It is a statistic matter only.

21 years in a vaste network and no accidents is a data to take account. Something like if planes are safe or aren't....
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Old August 4th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #1938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Then by your logic we could scrap all safety systems to save money and let nature take its course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post

21 years in a vaste network and no accidents is a data to take account. Something like if planes are safe or aren't....
This....

I'm all for safety systems BUT when you have this kind of attitude " oh I'm not going to ride the train until this, this and that happens" that just plain wrong. I'm not bashing you but when people say this kind of shit, it's just irritating. When you experience car accident, do you stop driving... 99% no... so how is it different when people take a train. Accident happens unfortunately, and its sad to see so many people die especially in accidents like this but people need to move on, which is hard sometimes.

I rode many European train systems (OBB, DB, Trenitalia, SBB etc..) and I always feel safe.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 12:05 AM   #1939
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With all due respect, I'm making the point that 79 people needlessly died because just 4km of a new railway that is 424km long and cost billions of Euros was not protected. Regardless of what the driver was or was not doing, on a brand new, state of the art railway this is inexcusable.

This accident should not have happened and we have been told for years that on new high speed railways this could not happen - and yet it has. 79 people died. A multi-million Euro train was destroyed and perhaps worse, the reputation of HSR in Spain and wider has been tarnished, all for the sake of 3 beacons. There is no doubt the anti-HS2 brigade in the UK has sought to capitalise on this and I see that the California HSR project has had to issue reassuring announcements.


If we are going to accept that "shit happens" then you could say the same about the accidents that brought in automatic train protection, or vacuum brakes, or black boxes on planes that have allowed the industry to improve reliability, or seat belts, or air bags, or anti-lock brakes. Why bother with all that? Just let people die.

Alternatively we can do what has always been done and learn from this experience to improve railway safety everywhere. I hope RENFE/ADIF (and other countries) audit their networks for similar locations with inadequate signalling and sort them out.

Of course I will still ride trains, but in the back of my mind I will be wondering what gaps there are in the signalling system and no longer will I be able to say that articulated bogies like the TGV's will prevent a pile up like Eschede.


And by the way, you might get more respect by not swearing when trying to make your point.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 12:20 AM   #1940
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webeagle12 View Post
Do you know if your roof is 100% stable and it's not going to fall on you any minute?
If we stick to your roof analogy: if my neighbor's roof collapses because of 3 missing bolts, then I certainly WILL check my roof for 'similar safety gaps', as 33Hz was saying.
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