daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 25th, 2009, 10:29 AM   #61
Grunnen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 972
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Sorry, I have to correct that: The Rhein-Ruhr agglomeration is the region between Düsseldorf and Hamm and this region is covered by the same ticket network (VRR = Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Ruhr).
Köln and Bonn for example are not part of the Rhein-Ruhr agglomeration, they are part of the Köln/Bonn agglomeration (other designation: Rhein-Sieg agglomeration). That's the reason why they have another ticket network in Rhein-Sieg, that's the reason why they are not members of VRR but of VRS; and that's the reason why there operates S-Bahn Köln and not S-Bahn Rhein-Ruhr and why they have Stadtbahn Rhein-Sieg and not Stadtbahn Rhein-Ruhr.
We have Rhein-Ruhr on the one hand and Köln/Bonn (Rhein-Sieg) on the other, they have not much in common.
So it makes sense to have different ticket networks.
Why are you so irritated? The Metropolregion Rhein-Ruhr does cover Cologne and Bonn. Look, for example, here or here or here (PDF; page 7) or here. Does that annoy you or so?
Grunnen no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old May 25th, 2009, 12:57 PM   #62
Ricardo Fig
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 386
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by kato2k8 View Post
Circuit number within a route. That is, bus 06 will be the bus running on internal route timetable number 06. Next bus on the same route say e.g. 10 or 20 minutes later will likely be 07, next will be 08 and so on during regular operation, until the route is filled with busses (since at some point, the next one will be 01 again, having passed through the full circuit of the route). Internally, this bus will then run on a timetable saying e.g. "155-12" for the 12th bus on line 155, which combined with the right form for "155-12" gives the necessary information on when to turn up where. Including when to switch drivers, when to turn in the bus at the depot or to which line and circuit the bus changes at a certain terminus.

Thank you, that was very clear!

We also use that around here, but without the digital display.
The details of the service are all in a paper sheet in small sleeve inside the bus, that the driver picks up in the depot. The sistem is almost the same.



"28-2"
Ricardo Fig no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 25th, 2009, 01:39 PM   #63
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,169
Likes (Received): 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
Why are you so irritated? The Metropolregion Rhein-Ruhr does cover Cologne and Bonn. Look, for example, here or here or here (PDF; page 7) or here. Does that annoy you or so?
Metropolregion is not the same as agglomeration. Metropolregion is a political definition. Because of that it is possible to leave a Metropolregion like Cologne and Bonn want to, they shall create their own one. They want to do it, because so they can get more incentives.

Agglomeration (Ballungraum/Großraum) is a geographical and historical definition. Historical and geographical Rhein-Sieg has not much to do with Rhein-Ruhr.
It is no hap that there are two ticket networks, two S-Bahn systems and two Stadtbahn systems (Rhein-Sieg and Rhein-Ruhr), there is a reason why they have launched two and not one.

I know also about the difference because of my own experience, I live today in the Rhein-Ruhr region, but lived some years before in the Rhein-Sieg region, so I know it first hand and no, it's not localism or something like that, because originally I'm from Berlin.
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.

Last edited by JoKo65; May 25th, 2009 at 01:47 PM.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 25th, 2009, 11:36 PM   #64
Grunnen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 972
Likes (Received): 30

Are you sure that it isn't just you feeling a mental border between both area's, because having a season ticket you can travel for free until the border, and have to pay to get past it?

Because historically, the most important border was between Rheinland and Westfalen, with Cologne, Düsseldorf and Duisburg on one side, and Dortmund on the other side.

And I've practical experience too, as I've studied and lived in the region for a few years.
Grunnen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th, 2009, 12:21 AM   #65
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 410
Likes (Received): 24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Fig View Post
We also use that around here, but without the digital display.
Frankfurt for example uses the same system even with trams (with small digital displays in the window corner like those Citaros) - only city i've seen it with trams yet.

Most places do use such a system of course - but most companies do not publicize the circuit number on the bus itself like that.
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th, 2009, 08:26 AM   #66
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,169
Likes (Received): 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
Are you sure that it isn't just you feeling a mental border between both area's, because having a season ticket you can travel for free until the border, and have to pay to get past it?

Because historically, the most important border was between Rheinland and Westfalen, with Cologne, Düsseldorf and Duisburg on one side, and Dortmund on the other side.

And I've practical experience too, as I've studied and lived in the region for a few years.
The existence of Rhein-Ruhr and Rhein-Sieg is a fact that's not my feeling but reality. What's about S-Bahn Köln and S-Bahn Rhein-Ruhr for example, is it only a feeling? What's about VRS and VRR? What's about Stadtbahn Rhein-Ruhr and Stadtbahn Rhein-Sieg? Are these only feelings? They founded these different organisations because of feelings? Come on!
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th, 2009, 11:59 AM   #67
Grunnen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 972
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
The existence of Rhein-Ruhr and Rhein-Sieg is a fact that's not my feeling but reality. What's about S-Bahn Köln and S-Bahn Rhein-Ruhr for example, is it only a feeling?
Hmm... Back in 2008, there was no "S-Bahn Köln". The S-Bahn was just part of DB Regio. S-Bahn trains (the ones with a locomotive in front of them) were used interchangably. The trains on the S5 and S8 lines often had both a VRR and a VRS map inside, even though these lines are VRR-only lines.

But indeed, it seems that DB now starts to change this, with Baureihe 423 "S-Bahn Köln" around Cologne, and Baureihe 422 in the Ruhr Area.

Quote:
What's about VRS and VRR?
What about VRR and VGN and ZRL? Does that mean that Kamen, Dinslaken and Moers aren't part of the Ruhr Area? Or that Mönchengladbach is?

Quote:
What's about Stadtbahn Rhein-Ruhr and Stadtbahn Rhein-Sieg?
That's a technical thing: Stadtbahn Rhein-Ruhr was created as a big Landesweit subvention plan. At that time, Cologne had already started building tram tunnels on their own, without subsidies, so it didn't participate.

But what about Bielefeld? Their tunnels were also built under the Rhein-Ruhr subvention scheme. Does that make Bielefeld part of the Ruhr Area?

Edit: I know that people from Düsseldorf and from Cologne don't like eachother. It is obvious that Krefeld belongs to Düsseldorf, and that Bergisch Gladbach belongs to Cologne. But still, they all belong to one big metropolitan region.

It's actually very similar to the situation here in the Netherlands. Amsterdam and Rotterdam both belong to one big conurbation, the "Randstad". But both cities don't like eachoter, both have their own identity and both have their own agglomeration.

Both ways of thinking are possible, they don't exclude eachother.

Last edited by Grunnen; May 26th, 2009 at 12:06 PM.
Grunnen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 31st, 2009, 01:29 PM   #68
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,169
Likes (Received): 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
Hmm... Back in 2008, there was no "S-Bahn Köln". The S-Bahn was just part of DB Regio. S-Bahn trains (the ones with a locomotive in front of them) were used interchangably. The trains on the S5 and S8 lines often had both a VRR and a VRS map inside, even though these lines are VRR-only lines.
Right, but since the 70ies it existed a distinction between the S-Bahn Rhein-Ruhr area and the area of S-Bahn Rhein-Sieg. Today the label "S-Bahn Rhein-Sieg" is not used anymore, it is now called "S-Bahn Köln".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
But indeed, it seems that DB now starts to change this, with Baureihe 423 "S-Bahn Köln" around Cologne, and Baureihe 422 in the Ruhr Area.
The gap between the two networks gets bigger by using different rolling stocks, right!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
What about VRR and VGN and ZRL? Does that mean that Kamen, Dinslaken and Moers aren't part of the Ruhr Area? Or that Mönchengladbach is?
Dinslaken and Moers are borderline cases. Between VRR and VGN a close collaboration is on the way, perhaps in future there will be only one VRR/VGN ticket network.
I don't know much about ZRL.
Mönchengladbach is not part of the Ruhr area, but of the Rhein-Ruhr agglomeration.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
That's a technical thing: Stadtbahn Rhein-Ruhr was created as a big Landesweit subvention plan. At that time, Cologne had already started building tram tunnels on their own, without subsidies, so it didn't participate.
Cologne did participate, there are tunnels according to the standard of Stadtbahn Rhein-Sieg in Cologne, which are very similar to the standard of Stadtbahn Rhein-Ruhr.
Only the old tunnels did not participate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
But what about Bielefeld? Their tunnels were also built under the Rhein-Ruhr subvention scheme. Does that make Bielefeld part of the Ruhr Area?
Their tunnels were built under the NRW subvention scheme. Stadtbahn Bielefeld has nothing to do with Stadtbahn Rhein-Ruhr.

There are three Stadtbahn areas in NRW:

Stadtbahn Bielefeld
Stadtbahn Rhein-Ruhr (Ruhr area and Düsseldorf)
Stadtbahn Rhein-Sieg (Bonn, Köln)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
Edit: I know that people from Düsseldorf and from Cologne don't like eachother.
The borders between Rhein-Ruhr and Rhein-Sieg have been created by the country NRW not by Düsseldorf or Cologne.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
It is obvious that Krefeld belongs to Düsseldorf, and that Bergisch Gladbach belongs to Cologne. But still, they all belong to one big metropolitan region.

It's actually very similar to the situation here in the Netherlands. Amsterdam and Rotterdam both belong to one big conurbation, the "Randstad". But both cities don't like eachoter, both have their own identity and both have their own agglomeration.

Both ways of thinking are possible, they don't exclude eachother.
As I have told above, at the moment Cologne and Bonn are part of the Metropolregion Rhein-Ruhr but they want to leave and create an own. The process has been started already.
But, and that's important, they are not part of the agglomeration (Großraum) Rhein-Ruhr. They are part of the Großraum Köln/Bonn or Rhein-Sieg.
Whereas Düsseldorf and Mönchengladabach are part of the Großraum Rhein-Ruhr, no question about that.

Metropolregionen are very big (too big) areas and I doubt the sense of such an area and I'm not alone.
Look at Rhein-Main, almost the whole country of Hessen is part of that Metropolregion, such a definition is simply not useful!
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.

Last edited by JoKo65; May 31st, 2009 at 01:37 PM.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 31st, 2009, 05:16 PM   #69
Grunnen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 972
Likes (Received): 30

OK, that makes sense.

Actually quite interesting - I'm now studying planning, and already before I began I knew for sure that I didn't want to specialise in agglomerations and metropolitan regions. The definitions are very vague and one gets lost in endless discussions very easily. I think the discussion above makes a perfect example of that.

Now where did we start? With the different tickets. So okay, the VRS does not count. That leaves four different tariff systems in Rhein-Ruhr.

To get back to the topic, a little puzzle:

Somewhere in the VRR.
- Where?
- What type of train?
- What is the destionation of the train?
Grunnen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 1st, 2009, 09:47 PM   #70
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,169
Likes (Received): 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
OK, that makes sense.

Actually quite interesting - I'm now studying planning, and already before I began I knew for sure that I didn't want to specialise in agglomerations and metropolitan regions. The definitions are very vague and one gets lost in endless discussions very easily. I think the discussion above makes a perfect example of that.

Now where did we start? With the different tickets. So okay, the VRS does not count. That leaves four different tariff systems in Rhein-Ruhr.

To get back to the topic, a little puzzle:

[…]

Somewhere in the VRR.
- Where?
- What type of train?
- What is the destionation of the train?
Could be a regional train (n-waggons?) in Hagen.
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2009, 12:53 PM   #71
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 410
Likes (Received): 24

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Look at Rhein-Main, almost the whole country of Hessen is part of that Metropolregion, such a definition is simply not useful!
There is no official definition of which districts belong to the Metropolregion Frankfurt-Rhein/Main. The widest definition divides all of Hessen state by three local regions, Metropolregion Rhein/Neckar in the South, Region Kassel in the North, and Metropolregion Frankfurt-Rhein/Main for everything else (80%, and a good part beyond the borders too). The tightest definition pretty much stops 30-40 km from Frankfurt proper in every direction roughly, and thus includes about a third of Hessen.
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2009, 04:51 PM   #72
Grunnen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 972
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Could be a regional train (n-waggons?) in Hagen.
Correct!

RE13 to Venlo shortly after leaving Hagen Hbf.

At the end of this year, a new operator will take over this line (and RE3) and introduce new trains. That also means the end of n-waggons in Rhein-Ruhr, right?
Grunnen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2009, 02:00 PM   #73
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,169
Likes (Received): 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
[…]

That also means the end of n-waggons in Rhein-Ruhr, right?
Could be, I am not sure.
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2009, 02:34 PM   #74
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,169
Likes (Received): 35

Photos of Stadtbahn Rhein-Ruhr in Düsseldorf.

B80D carriages at Freiligrathplatz. First carriage is newer than the second one, it has a different pantograph and different door steps and it is built of aluminium:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/stadtbahn-duesseldorf-duisburg-288014.jpg[/IMG]

At Froschenteich, two different carriages too:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/stadtbahn-duesseldorf-duisburg-287307.jpg[/IMG]

Between Freiligrathplatz and Messe-Ost, special grass track, three carriage train:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/stadtbahn-duesseldorf-duisburg-283436.jpg[/IMG]

Between Froschenteich and Wittlaer:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/stadtbahn-duesseldorf-duisburg-271946.jpg[/IMG]

GT8SU carriages leaving Lörick terminus. In the middle of the rails in the foreground you can see the LZB train control cable:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/stadtbahn-duesseldorf-duisburg-270963.jpg[/IMG]
**************
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2009, 07:38 PM   #75
Filip7370
Modern transit...
 
Filip7370's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Warsaw
Posts: 153
Likes (Received): 1

Wunderbar Bilden!...(sorry for eventual mistake).
__________________
Faculty of Transport of Warsaw University of Technology (Warsaw Polytechnics).
Filip7370 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2009, 11:16 AM   #76
Chilenofuturista
Zug->für 'ne bessere welt
 
Chilenofuturista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Aus keiner Stadt
Posts: 7,981
Likes (Received): 214

Admirable systems!

I'll be in the Rhein-Ruhr area from June to July, so if anyone is willing to show me interesting buildings and anything related to trains, drop me a PM!

Cheers!
Chilenofuturista no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 12th, 2009, 09:19 PM   #77
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,169
Likes (Received): 35

Photos from the heart of the Ruhr area – photos of Essen's tram.

M8D-NF trains at Hollestraße:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-149135.jpg[/IMG]

Hollestraße:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-149134.jpg[/IMG]

Steele S:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-135348.jpg[/IMG]

M8 train at Gutenbergstraße:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-99371.jpg[/IMG]

Zollverein Süd:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-92998.jpg[/IMG]

M8D-NF train at Heißener Straße:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-87815.jpg[/IMG]

Some tunnels which are built for the Stadtbahn are used by the tram till the Stadtbahn will start it's service on this branch – M8 train leaving a tunnel at Rüttenscheider Straße:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-31108.jpg[/IMG]

Tram in tunnel at Berliner Platz, it's a transfer station between tram and Stadtbahn:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-30545.jpg[/IMG]
**************
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 13th, 2009, 07:21 PM   #78
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,169
Likes (Received): 35

More photos of the tram in Essen.

Helenenstraße:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-280123.jpg[/IMG]

Between stations "Krupp Hauptverwaltung" and "Helenenstraße":

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-280115.jpg[/IMG]

Krupp Hauptverwaltung:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-279910.jpg[/IMG]

Leaving the tunnel at Essen Hauptbahnhof approaching Aalto Theater:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-279896.jpg[/IMG]

Loop in Bredeney:

[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/essen-271442.jpg[/IMG]
**************
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 18th, 2009, 09:45 PM   #79
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,169
Likes (Received): 35

Some photos of the tram of Duisburg.

Station Zoo/Uni:



Dinslaken terminus:



Duisburg's tram at Mülheim's Königstraße:



Mülheim Hbf. terminus:



Duisburg-Hamborn, Rathaus:


mm-trains.de
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 18th, 2009, 11:13 PM   #80
Filip7370
Modern transit...
 
Filip7370's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Warsaw
Posts: 153
Likes (Received): 1

Is there in Rhine-Ruhr any trolleybus system, that still is operating?
__________________
Faculty of Transport of Warsaw University of Technology (Warsaw Polytechnics).
Filip7370 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu