Florida high-speed rail

[HARTride 2012]

I agree. But try telling that to your government....

[transitrider]

Originally Posted by jzquince69

Who exactly is we, and how is Sunrail a big failure? B/C, if you live in Orlando metro and commute to downtown from either north of downtown or south of downtown, you need it.

And who the hec is in such need to go from town to town on Amtrak? I'm getting tired of hearing about Amtrak. Commuter Rail is for workers to commute to the CBD for work. Who exactly is going to take an Amtrak train from Daytona to Deland to Orlando to Lakeland to Tampa to St. Pete for shits and giggles? Is it for work, which is what the majority of people do in this state? I don't think so. Workers don't live in Winter Haven and take Amtrak to Sarasota every day.

So lets stop comparing apples and oranges for once. And regarding Tri-Rail, they just got done double-tracking the entire route a couple of years ago. Would they do that if noone was using it? I don't think so.

On another note, I think HSR from Disney to Tampa is a complete waste of money (notice I said Disney and not OIA). HSR absolutely must go from Disney via OIA to the MIC at MIA. If it doesn't do that, then why bother? The Tampa leg is being proposed only b/c it is cost effective for the bid. I forsee that route from DIS to TAM having very few operating times compared to the rest of the Orlando metro stops (b/c noone will use them- its not even going to TPA).

So, this state needs commuter rail. And this state can use HSR to bolster tourism and business to an extent. But Tampa-Orlando for a line- I mean, unless it becomes a catalyst to push for phase 2 to Miami- will be useless and the OIA to Disney leg will end up funding the whole thing I guarantee you. And if the Tampa leg is too much of a financial strain on the rest of the system, they'll just cut down operating times or frequency.

Be honest with you, I do not support HSR or SunRail, we do not need it, Florida is not suitable for that kind of service becuase THEY do not have experience or not know any shit about HSR.

The reason I support Amtrak because they know how to run system and they also know jackshit and they are more professionals and I rather Florida to sign contract with Amtrak and let them run the trains, they can do it better than SunRail. Why waste billion dollars? Instead contract with Amtrak, it would cost so much less and better in long run.

Florida needs to provide same level commuter train service like in Cailforina but contract with Amtrak rather than its own like SunRail. This will make more sense, because of budget costs.

TriRail has been very lucky that they are growing but they are running out of money and Miami wants to pay zero funding and Broward and Palm Counties is the only that would pay but 50% less than they used pay for the service. The $2 rental subcharge proposed has been around for year or two and they havent passed that yet. Once that happens, TriRail will be able to keep up running, add more trains and maybe more service on weekends and late nights too.

[HARTride 2012]

I discussed with a friend's family yesterday about this very subject. As long as no one is on the same page, then nothing is going to happen, we will simply be left with the status-quo.

We need to have all three levels of government, and the people on the exact same page so that we can have coordination. That's FL's big problem, no one is on the same page with transit, so there is no coordination of any kind, everyone does things on their own, which screws things up for other areas.

Then when the govts listen to the opposition, who think mass transit expansion is a boondoggle, and opt for the status-quo instead, that makes our situation worse.

[Lakelander]

Originally Posted by jzquince69

Who exactly is we, and how is Sunrail a big failure? B/C, if you live in Orlando metro and commute to downtown from either north of downtown or south of downtown, you need it.

And who the hec is in such need to go from town to town on Amtrak? I'm getting tired of hearing about Amtrak. Commuter Rail is for workers to commute to the CBD for work. Who exactly is going to take an Amtrak train from Daytona to Deland to Orlando to Lakeland to Tampa to St. Pete for shits and giggles? Is it for work, which is what the majority of people do in this state? I don't think so. Workers don't live in Winter Haven and take Amtrak to Sarasota every day.

So lets stop comparing apples and oranges for once.

Time to add a little reality into the rail discussion. A rail system (including an Amtrak operated one) does not strictly have to be what we have historically associated as commuter rail or intercity regional rail. So what Sunrail and Amtrak can bring to the table is not really an apples and oranges discussion. As proven in California and the NE, an Amtrak corridor service can operate exactly like commuter rail, frequencies and station spacing included. By the same token, as proven by commuter rail systems in Oceanside, San Francisco, Austin, New Jersey and Philadelphia commuter rail can provide the same services as a transit novice would associate with light rail. In the end, it really depends on how you set your system up and what you want it to cater to. Traditional descriptions of what is commuter and intercity rail need to die a quick death because they are flat out wrong.

And regarding Tri-Rail, they just got done double-tracking the entire route a couple of years ago. Would they do that if noone was using it? I don't think so.

My guess is that Sunrail will become reality, Tri-Rail will get its needed funding, the first phase of HSR will be built and Amtrak will come to the FEC. After that, all bets are off.

On another note, I think HSR from Disney to Tampa is a complete waste of money (notice I said Disney and not OIA). HSR absolutely must go from Disney via OIA to the MIC at MIA. If it doesn't do that, then why bother? The Tampa leg is being proposed only b/c it is cost effective for the bid. I forsee that route from DIS to TAM having very few operating times compared to the rest of the Orlando metro stops (b/c noone will use them- its not even going to TPA).

So, this state needs commuter rail. And this state can use HSR to bolster tourism and business to an extent. But Tampa-Orlando for a line- I mean, unless it becomes a catalyst to push for phase 2 to Miami- will be useless and the OIA to Disney leg will end up funding the whole thing I guarantee you. And if the Tampa leg is too much of a financial strain on the rest of the system, they'll just cut down operating times or frequency.

The HSR plan is a dog and could cripple future rail plans in the state for years.

1. How many travelers are really going from DT Tampa to Orlando's airport?

2. Disney has stated that they are not getting rid of their shuttle service to Orlando's airport.

3. It won't relieve I-4 congestion because there aren't enough stations between the end points.

4. Its poorly integrated with other existing and proposed transit systems. For example, how does it not tie in with Sunrail, TECO Streetcar line and Tampa's Union Station?

5. It avoids major pockets of population. Rail works best when stations are located in pockets of decent density and walkable districts (ex. DT Lakeland, Orlando, etc.)

6. It doesn't save anyone any time and it costs $60 roundtrip.

I can't speak for Transitrider, but in reality, a statewide Amtrak corridor service could be designed to serve what both Sunrail and HSR will bring to the table for a fraction of the costs. Several cities and states are enjoying these services right now, so the proof is out there. However, this state is so backwards and the wheels to the other plans have been set in motion, so don't expect common sense to enter the picture now.

[kevinkagy]

IMO, HSR should have started with Miami to Orlando. This makes much more sense as a Miamian, because we are the largest metro area in the state, and travel between Orlando and Miami is very common. It's also a longer distance, so taking the train can seem more feasible, and with a line up the Miami coast, you'd be hitting the densest parts of South Florida. Not to mention, HSR could connect to the existing Amtrak, Metrorail, Tri-Rail, Metromover and/or at the new Miami Central Station, which will have connections to ALL forms of transportation in the city. Tampa to Orlando HSR smells like a failure, unless the Miami-Orlando line is also built right after.

[Lakelander]

I agree. The Miami/Orlando link makes better sense but unfortunately, its cost too much. Let's just hope that link gets funded and construction begins before the Tampa/Orlando link is completed.

[FlaNatv]

HSR for Tampa-Orlando seems cool, but I think it will take money away from better projects in the same corridor. (Unfortunately, we can't just take the money) Orlando-Miami will probably be more of a success.

I would like to see better rail options between Tampa and Orlando. The current Amtrak is not practical due to the schedule. Someone mentioned that people do not work in Orlando and live in Tampa (and visa versa), therefore frequent rail between the two is not feasible. That may be partially true, however, I think that from Lakeland, a lot of people commute to either Orl or Tampa. This would help make commuter rail feasible, but not HSR(way too expensive for a relatively short distance.)

[Lakelander]

Commuter rail between the cities will work. The everyday workers clogging the streets are coming from the communities between the cities. The Lakelands, Brandons, Plant Citys, Haines Citys, Kissimmees, Poincianas, Four Corners, Tampa/Orlando suburbs, etc. Unfortunately, with the HSR plan, they don't have stops and the Lakeland stop could end up being 15 miles outside of the heart of the city. When the comparison between Amtrak, Sunrail and HSR came up earlier, this is the area where Amtrak can shine above the other two. A corridor service could be designed for local commuting and express intercity trips. You could kill two birds with one stone and provide rail service to a lot more communities than the current proposals. Sunrail could still complement a corridor service but HSR most likely kills the concept in Central Florida, because they would compete for riders.

[SkyDiveJunkee]

It is unfortunate that HSR has been linked to the intercity transit discussion, it adds confusion and misinformation. Commuter rail, as well as improvement to the bus system, upgrades including lightrail, etc, will be successful in the Orlando metro. An additional intercity rail line could easily serve the airport, the I-Drive corridor/convention center, and Disney. There was once a plan in place to do just that.

The Tampa/Orlando HSR connection is extremely irresponsible. As has been said here, the Orlando-Miami line would likely be a bigger success, finally linking two cities in Florida that actually have more in common than people admit. They are two major tourist destinations (albeit, for different reasons but that is a strength not a weakness) and continue to grow as major business centers and airport gateways. Orlando-Miami need to be looked at as a pair, sister cities in Florida that work together, much like LA-San Diego, NY-Boston-Philly, etc. It is a shame the Tampa/Orlando connection could kill any hopes of the true line (Miami/Orlando) ever being realized.

[kevinkagy]

A Miami-Orlando line would prove successful, and a worthwhile investment. With the success of a Miami-Orlando line, the Tampa-Orlando line could then be built. However, they're doing it the opposite, which will only result in a failure of the Tampa-Orlando line, and a never built Miami-Orlando. End result= a failure of the Florida HSR system, and yet another reason for the government to not want to fund public transit in our state.

[jzquince69]

My prediction is that there will be so many riders between OIA-Disney, that it will end up funding the remainder of the line to Tampa. And if the Tampa line is not that busy, they will lessen ride times to maximize patrons per ride.

I'm thinking the Orlando-Tampa leg is a concession to get that dirt to lay off the Sunrail proposal. But also, it is cheap to build and it is our best shot to get Fed $$$. Chances are, once the first leg is up and running, the subsequent leg will soon follow.

I took Amtrak from Chicago to Lansing once and it took forever and a day b/c of all the stops. What was only a 4 hour drive turned into a 6 hour trip. That's the folly of many stops; that, and trains slowing down through metro areas.

Again, I know about the Amtrak deal in CA. All I'm saying is that from day one, Dockery was talking about Amtrak as an alternative- but not as a catalyst for CRT, rather, as intercity rail which is not what CRT was designed to do. The Sunrail proposal is for CRT and she was confusing the issue saying that intercity rail would be jeopardized b/c of extra freight on the lines in Polk.

Having Amtrak manage CRT ridership makes sense on the surface, but, where the hec was this proposal years ago? Where was it when Orlando proposed the Lynx LRT in 1998? Granted that system would use its own tracks. All I see is that Orlando comes up with a proposal for CRT using freight tracks and we're throwing the Amtrak alternative in there to justify derailing the proposal in favor of one that hasn't even gotten to square one in this state, which will delay transit even further down the road.

It's almost as if Orlando coming up with this proposal for Sunrail got other parts of the State to finally get off their collective @sses on using freight lines for transit; but all I see is that b/c Florida is so backwards-@ss, Orlando has to suffer b/c only now is the Amtrak option out there as an alternative, so, as a result, the prudent thing to do is kill Sunrail in hopes that the State will get together on the Amtrak proposal to supplant the Sunrail proposal for various parts of the state, and not just Orlando.

Like I or anyone else really believes that will ever happen. Those legislators are just hoping Sunrail will die so that they can sweep that and any other future proposal under the rug and table it indefinitely. Mark my words... If Sunrail dies, it's over- and not just for Orlando.

[jzquince69]

Originally Posted by transitrider

Be honest with you, I do not support HSR or SunRail, we do not need it, Florida is not suitable for that kind of service becuase THEY do not have experience or not know any shit about HSR.

The reason I support Amtrak because they know how to run system and they also know jackshit and they are more professionals and I rather Florida to sign contract with Amtrak and let them run the trains, they can do it better than SunRail. Why waste billion dollars? Instead contract with Amtrak, it would cost so much less and better in long run.

Florida needs to provide same level commuter train service like in Cailforina but contract with Amtrak rather than its own like SunRail. This will make more sense, because of budget costs.

TriRail has been very lucky that they are growing but they are running out of money and Miami wants to pay zero funding and Broward and Palm Counties is the only that would pay but 50% less than they used pay for the service. The $2 rental subcharge proposed has been around for year or two and they havent passed that yet. Once that happens, TriRail will be able to keep up running, add more trains and maybe more service on weekends and late nights too.

I think what you are stating is that simply, you prefer the Amtrak plan over Sunrail, and that you are against HSR.

Well, here's my opinion. I am for Sunrail; its precursor is TriRail, which is for the most part successful.

I am also for no more delays. Bringing up Amtrak in the 11th hour is ridiculous. If commuter rail were such a need for the past few years, this proposal should have been studied by all of the major metropolitan planning agencies in Florida, and penciled in as viable, and every growth management plan should've been developed with it in mind, which has not happened. Metroplan Orlando on the other hand did study CRT years ago even when the LRT was proposed.

But again, like I said in my other post, its an 11th hour alternative brought out from nowhere as reason to dump the existing Sunrail proposal. I'd hate to call it a red herring. Again, where was this Amtrak proposal years ago? So now all of the sudden most people from outside Orlando or wherever want to redivert state funds away from Sunrail because this is the right way to go instead?

I would've put more clout in the Amtrak alternative years ago as an initial proposal for a region, not as an alternative one aimed at shooting down an existing proposal that should've passed last year.

And again, has the State been snoozing all this time, biding its time, just waiting for the appropriate trigger to spring this alternative- that trigger being a VIABLE commuter rail proposal that has a good possibility of passing... just for the purpose of killing the commuter rail proposal, and sending the state backwards into years of more research on viability and other issues, etc., until even the Amtrak proposal dies when enough people lose interest? Because that's what I am seeing here...

And I'm also seeing regionalism as well. Tampa people don't want it b/c they want the money for their future system whatever that may be, and also b/c God forbid a smaller metro land such a system before they do. Miami people don't want it unless it helps bring money to TriRail, otherwise if it fails, it could jeopardize future TriRail money from the State. People from Jax actually do want it b/c it frees up one of the tracks for them to run CRT up in Duval.

If I sound regionally biased, it is b/c I am. I followed this proposal at every stage and saw the B.S. arguments that kept being thrown into the argument by its opponents from day 1; if one argument failed, the next one was propounded; and so on... and Amtrak was one of those arguments- being argued by a shrew with a chip on her shoulder- and I don't buy into it. So, we went from too many trains in Lakeland to too much money to CSX to jeopardizing future intercity rail along the same corridor to too much money overall... to Amtrak. Sorry, but I'm tainted just a bit.

[SkyDiveJunkee]

The special session has been called for this week. Behind the scenes they have worked out a deal that would create a state-wide "Rail Agency" similar to the turnpike authority that will govern growth for regional and state-wide rail networks across the state. This is extremely encouraging. I've long thought Florida needed a higher, state-wide approach to rail transit (akin to MA, NY, NJ, CA).

[Lakelander]

jzquince69, I understand your passion and sense a little regionalism in your line of thought. There's nothing wrong with that and I think we all have a little regionalism built into our views. For example, Sunrail would be a boost for Jax because it would pave the way for us to implement our own commuter rail plans between DT and Clay County on the CSX A line. The money paid to CSX would also pay for the Springfield Bypass in North Jax to access the port, freeing up Northside rail capacity for commuter rail to the airport. Being from Polk County, I was also a huge HSR fan who voted for it back in 2000.

However, now that I work in the transit planning industry I have been exposed to various viable rail solutions that were never explored in Florida. This has impacted my view to a large degree because our decisions now will have a strong impact on our future rail proposals.

Originally Posted by jzquince69

My prediction is that there will be so many riders between OIA-Disney, that it will end up funding the remainder of the line to Tampa. And if the Tampa line is not that busy, they will lessen ride times to maximize patrons per ride.

1. If Disney agrees to force their airport passengers to HSR, I'd agree that the MCO-Disney segment would be a success. However, now Disney has no intentions of getting rid of their airport shuttle system. HSR ridership to Disney will be significantly impacted by a "free" direct shuttle option to Disney over paying big bucks to ride a train to the same destination. Besides, the MCO-Disney link is better suited for something like light rail, not HSR.

2. If the Tampa line fails to draw ridership, we better hope the MCO-Miami link is already funded and under construction. If not, the failure of a $2 billion rail system between Tampa and MCO could kill the second phase before it has a chance to get off the ground. Look at the Jacksonville skyway for an example of a fixed transit system struggling early phases killing the entire plan, thus limiting the system's overall effectiveness and labling it forever as a failure. In Jax, we're still trying to overcome the skyway experience to move commuter rail and streetcar plans forward.

I'm thinking the Orlando-Tampa leg is a concession to get that dirt to lay off the Sunrail proposal. But also, it is cheap to build and it is our best shot to get Fed $$$.

Better yet, the desire for federal dollars to get HSR is bringing Sunrail back to life. Without the HSR issue forcing the state's hands, Sunrail would be DOA and Tri-Rail would be on its last legs.

Chances are, once the first leg is up and running, the subsequent leg will soon follow.

Or first leg fails, Obama does not get reelected putting Republicans back in charge and the entire HSR thing countrywide gets shut down. Again, as an example, I offer you the Jax Skyway. The first phases were built with federal dollars and they pulled out before completing the system.

I took Amtrak from Chicago to Lansing once and it took forever and a day b/c of all the stops. What was only a 4 hour drive turned into a 6 hour trip. That's the folly of many stops; that, and trains slowing down through metro areas.

That's long distance intercity rail and is what most Floridians associate with Amtrak, because we have not been exposed to better services they offer. Next time try the Pacific Surfliner, Acela, VRE (DC commuter rail), or Caltrain (San Francisco commuter rail). I bet your experience will be completely different. However, these types of services aren't available to states that refuse to form funding partnerships with Amtrak.

Again, I know about the Amtrak deal in CA. All I'm saying is that from day one, Dockery was talking about Amtrak as an alternative- but not as a catalyst for CRT, rather, as intercity rail which is not what CRT was designed to do. The Sunrail proposal is for CRT and she was confusing the issue saying that intercity rail would be jeopardized b/c of extra freight on the lines in Polk.

Yes, she was but don't downplay what Amtrak can bring to the table because of Dockery. She's rail novice just like most Floridians. An Amtrak corridor service can bring a lot more to the table to the State of Florida than Sunrail can do for half the price. If Florida was smart, they'd push Amtrak, get their federal dollars and piggyback high frequency commuter rail in Orlando off the Amtrak investment.

Having Amtrak manage CRT ridership makes sense on the surface, but, where the hec was this proposal years ago?

Blame the State. Amtrak views Florida as one of their potential growth markets. However, the State of Florida has never truly been interested in investing in rail until now. My guess is this change should probably be credited to the Obama administration and their federal funding strategies. We're in a recession and federal money has been tied to rail. Money talks.

Where was it when Orlando proposed the Lynx LRT in 1998? Granted that system would use its own tracks.

Lynx was light rail. Amtrak and commuter rail are forms of heavy rail using existing freight lines. Apples and Oranges.

All I see is that Orlando comes up with a proposal for CRT using freight tracks and we're throwing the Amtrak alternative in there to justify derailing the proposal in favor of one that hasn't even gotten to square one in this state, which will delay transit even further down the road.

I don't see it as that. The Amtrak option just makes financial sense in the long run. If we continue to be financially irresponsible, all we may end up with is Sunrail and HSR phase 1. As a rail supporter, I'd like to see many more lines constructed all over the state, including Orlando.

It's almost as if Orlando coming up with this proposal for Sunrail got other parts of the State to finally get off their collective @sses on using freight lines for transit; but all I see is that b/c Florida is so backwards-@ss, Orlando has to suffer b/c only now is the Amtrak option out there as an alternative, so, as a result, the prudent thing to do is kill Sunrail in hopes that the State will get together on the Amtrak proposal to supplant the Sunrail proposal for various parts of the state, and not just Orlando.

Like I or anyone else really believes that will ever happen. Those legislators are just hoping Sunrail will die so that they can sweep that and any other future proposal under the rug and table it indefinitely. Mark my words... If Sunrail dies, it's over- and not just for Orlando.

I sense the regionalism in your voice, which is acceptable by the way. In any event, while I do believe an Amtrak corridor service could be designed to give us what both HSR and Sunrail will bring to the table, I do hope that Sunrail is approved. It has its merits. The HSR plan is the one that has the power to sink rail in this entire state.

[HARTride 2012]

Originally Posted by SkyDiveJunkee

The special session has been called for this week. Behind the scenes they have worked out a deal that would create a state-wide "Rail Agency" similar to the turnpike authority that will govern growth for regional and state-wide rail networks across the state. This is extremely encouraging. I've long thought Florida needed a higher, state-wide approach to rail transit (akin to MA, NY, NJ, CA).

That makes tons of sense & would help keep everyone on the same page with rail.

Special session on commuter rail set
Tuesday, December 1, 2009

TALLAHASSEE (AP) -- Florida's Republican legislative leaders are telling members to be in Tallahassee on Thursday to begin work on expanding and strengthening commuter rail systems.


Senate President Jeff Atwater and House Speaker Larry Cretul on Monday jointly called an eight-day special session backed by Gov. Charlie Crist.


They hope the legislation, including measures needed to create a commuter rail system in central Florida, will help attract federal dollars for a high-speed rail line linking Tampa, Orlando and eventually Miami.


Florida AFL-CIO President Mike Williams called the plan government sanctioned union-busting as it would strip rail workers of job protections. State officials say few employees would be affected.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2...muter+rail+set

[jzquince69]

Great post, Lakelander. I actually stated I was regionally biased, Master Jedi. lol.

Anyway... I guess I just don't like people saying whether or not we "need" something based on whether they support it; "need" is objective, not subjective- or should be based on what standards are applied.

[jzquince69]

well, after researching it a bit, it's 20-20 before the special session even begins.

apart from that, I don't know anything else and nobody is doing any talking with regards to whom may or may not swing in favor of it at this juncture.

the unnamable one is questioning why this, Trirail, and HSR are being lumped into the same bill. well, its pretty obvious why, lady. I do think they need to work out the details of the liability issue a little better. other than that, I don't know, and I don't even know what to think right now about all this.

I think Amtrak makes sense, and think that's what will get implemented if this proposal fails. if the proposal fails, kiss HSR goodby according to what I've read.

I think the legislature for the most part stinks. and that's all I have to say at this point. I am disheveled (sp) and more and more apathetic about this the closer we get to the SEC Title Game. Go Gators!

[HARTride 2012]

I don't think this special session will achieve anything. Just a PR stunt more than anything else. As long as no one is one the same page and the anti-transit people continue to wallow in pride, nothing will get done. HSR is dead in FL....

[SkyDiveJunkee]

Originally Posted by HARTride 2012

I don't think this special session will achieve anything. Just a PR stunt more than anything else. As long as no one is one the same page and the anti-transit people continue to wallow in pride, nothing will get done. HSR is dead in FL....

Indeed it is this kind of attitude that gets nothing done in Florida, ever. No one believes in anything, no one takes a leap of faith, and everyone is stuck in traffic on I-4. Enjoy it -- you earned it!

[SkyDiveJunkee]

House passes SunRail bill:

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/new...bill-8425.html