TRANSPORT | Bus Rapid Transit / Cross City Bus Routes

[WatcherZero]

The former rail cuttings from the colliery and Manchester-Eccles-Wigan line but couldnt be used for trains again as its been built on in places by housing estates. In fact Ive been to a housing estate in West Leigh when working for the council where the part of the rail used to run and its been converted into a pedestrian tree lined boulevard with a housing estate on one side and the main road on the over it would be impossible for heavy rail to use it though might be possible for a tram street running.

http://www.gmpte.com/pdf/td101A_p1web.pdf
This is a really old (2001) map but as you can see from Leigh to Worsley it wouldnt actually run on existing roads.
http://www.brtuk.org/downloads/BRTSy...tations_09.pdf
and heres 2005 proposal. Im amused at the line the GMPTE strategy is to "reverse decentralisation"

[heatonparkincakes]

Alternatively they could use this mismash of a monster................

Toyota RailBus

A dual mode road/rail vehicle is being tested in Japan by Toyota and its truck-manufacturing division Hino Motors. The bus bridges the gap between road and rail with 4 rubber tires for road use and 4 steel wheels for riding on rails. It can hold 25 passengers and is based on the Toyota Microbus. The bus has been in service in Japan for the past 18 months, and there are plans to produce a newer version by June of 2008. Hino spokesperson Kenichiro Baba has stated that the bus “is expected to be another step toward more practical use of the dual mode vehicle.” This could be the mass transit vehicle of the future for Japanese commuters.

Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1GBcAlm-8

And oddly it isnt as far fetched as you think....

June 2009 from The Irish Times.

IRISH RAIL is considering replacing the Waterford to Limerick Junction services with a “rail bus” – a hybrid vehicle which can run on road and rail.

The vehicle, which has double sets of wheels, is one of a number of cost-cutting options on the route which has passenger traffic of only 54,000 people a year.

The rail bus, similar to an ordinary mini bus, is able to drive on either railways or roads and Irish Rail believes its capacity of about 20 seats would meet demand. Rail bus operations around the world traditionally allow high-cost signalling to be removed from the line, and a rail-mounted vehicle with the operational characteristics of a bus can then run instead. The rail bus offers significant fuel savings. Irish Rail estimates a rail bus system on the route could cut costs by 50 per cent.


On the other hand there is this wheeled erm tram erm bus erm ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyRM3jaZCkg


And pray tell what Aussie madness is this!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPhhbF0Ms7g

[WatcherZero]

That Australia ones so fast on the rails (100kmh) but slows to like 30 on normal roads, more train than bus. The specs they seem to have decided on for leigh is a two car tram like vehicle ~100+ seats using kerb guidance rather than rails.

[macc]

Originally Posted by nerd

But are there many people who would be unwilling to ride the 42 etc, if it crossed into Salford, rather than terminating at Piccadilly Gardens? And would students be unwilling to buy weekly/monthly/annual travel passes - evne if these were offered at a student discount?

I like the sound of the route through to Salford although is the journey via bus link from Wilmslow Road corridor to Piccadilly Station likely to be even worse? Currently you bus it to piccadilly gardens and walk to the Piccadilly station. If the route goes cross-city to Salford will this make the walk even further?

I've wondered in the past about shifting major bus destinations between temporary transport hubs to drive development in other parts of a ciy centre. Whilst it's totally impractical for many reasons, cross city routes may actually achieve some of the same benefits by more evenly spreading the passengers across a linar route rather than dumping them all at Piccadilly gardens.

Back to the Oxford Road closure to non-BRT/cross city buses: After removing cars from Oxford Road I'm not sure there would be any real congestion left on Oxford Road to warrant redirecting the buses. You get prolems overflowing from the city centre sometimes but once you get south of the Mancunian way you're more likely to be held up by traffic lights and pedestrian crossings than traffic. Until Rusholme, of course.

[spoonsbeatfish]

Originally Posted by macc

I like the sound of the route through to Salford although is the journey via bus link from Wilmslow Road corridor to Piccadilly Station likely to be even worse? Currently you bus it to piccadilly gardens and walk to the Piccadilly station. If the route goes cross-city to Salford will this make the walk even further?

I've wondered in the past about shifting major bus destinations between temporary transport hubs to drive development in other parts of a ciy centre. Whilst it's totally impractical for many reasons, cross city routes may actually achieve some of the same benefits by more evenly spreading the passengers across a linar route rather than dumping them all at Piccadilly gardens.

Back to the Oxford Road closure to non-BRT/cross city buses: After removing cars from Oxford Road I'm not sure there would be any real congestion left on Oxford Road to warrant redirecting the buses. You get prolems overflowing from the city centre sometimes but once you get south of the Mancunian way you're more likely to be held up by traffic lights and pedestrian crossings than traffic. Until Rusholme, of course.

Re. your first point, I think you may be a little mixed up on the routes. As I remember them, 1 bus will turn off down Grosvenor Street and head past Picc station on the way to terminating at Picc Gardens (or maybe head off to Bolton eventually). The other will carry on down Oxford rd/street, take a left down Portland and another left down Princess Street passing the town hall on the way to Salford and Salford Uni therby connecting all 3 uni's together.

One bus goes as far Christies and the other down to Parrs Wood (not sure which is which). So basically between Whithington and the Aquatics centre there is at least a bus every 2.5min connecting most of the student population to the 2 Oxford Rd Uni's and there is a bus every 5 min to Picc station/picc gardens and 1 every 5 min towards Salford. So it would be easier to get to Picc Station then and helps as you say spread passengers accross their desired destinations rather than most at Picc gardens.

Regarding your point about traffic, you're probably right as there is not that much traffic through the centre of the universities but I think one of the main reasons (if not the main reason) is to improve the urban environment of the university by reducing the road to 2 lanes and eliminating most traffic and the barrier the road creates through the middle of the university.

Also I wonder how late this BRT service will run to, Metrolink timings i.e. 1am? I would imagine the 42's etc will return to Oxford Road for night services and the late night clubbers etc.

[macc]

Originally Posted by spoonsbeatfish

Re. your first point, I think you may be a little mixed up on the routes. As I remember them, 1 bus will turn off down Grosvenor Street and head past Picc station on the way to terminating at Picc Gardens (or maybe head off to Bolton eventually). The other will carry on down Oxford rd/street, take a left down Portland and another left down Princess Street passing the town hall on the way to Salford and Salford Uni therby connecting all 3 uni's together.

One bus goes as far Christies and the other down to Parrs Wood (not sure which is which). So basically between Whithington and the Aquatics centre there is at least a bus every 2.5min connecting most of the student population to the 2 Oxford Rd Uni's and there is a bus every 5 min to Picc station/picc gardens and 1 every 5 min towards Salford. So it would be easier to get to Picc Station then and helps as you say spread passengers accross their desired destinations rather than most at Picc gardens.

Regarding your point about traffic, you're probably right as there is not that much traffic through the centre of the universities but I think one of the main reasons (if not the main reason) is to improve the urban environment of the university by reducing the road to 2 lanes and eliminating most traffic and the barrier the road creates through the middle of the university.

Also I wonder how late this BRT service will run to, Metrolink timings i.e. 1am? I would imagine the 42's etc will return to Oxford Road for night services and the late night clubbers etc.

Cheers spoons, I haven't seen the proposed routes but that sounds good.

Fair point about Oxford Road if they're wanting to narrow it to 2 lanes. Presumably the ground acquired from the raod would be for the trees to line the road, though I've yet to be won over by the 'tree idea'.

Pedestrian road crossings are a problem at the moment: There's not enough crossings for pedestrians - jaywalking can be a bit dodgy at busy times - yet the number of crossings and traffic lights is already noticably slowing down buses when the route is clear.

Perhaps the best answers is to clear cars, most buses and narrow the road to make jaywalking safer and easier (this reduces the need for pedestrian crossings).

Then with no traffic turning onto Oxford Road from side streets and a fewer vehicles on Oxford Road itself you can ditch the traffic lights completely and give right of way to Oxford Road traffic. The BRT would then only ever have to stop at the designated bus stops.

[nerd]

Originally Posted by macc

I like the sound of the route through to Salford although is the journey via bus link from Wilmslow Road corridor to Piccadilly Station likely to be even worse? Currently you bus it to piccadilly gardens and walk to the Piccadilly station. If the route goes cross-city to Salford will this make the walk even further?

I've wondered in the past about shifting major bus destinations between temporary transport hubs to drive development in other parts of a ciy centre. Whilst it's totally impractical for many reasons, cross city routes may actually achieve some of the same benefits by more evenly spreading the passengers across a linar route rather than dumping them all at Piccadilly gardens.

Back to the Oxford Road closure to non-BRT/cross city buses: After removing cars from Oxford Road I'm not sure there would be any real congestion left on Oxford Road to warrant redirecting the buses. You get prolems overflowing from the city centre sometimes but once you get south of the Mancunian way you're more likely to be held up by traffic lights and pedestrian crossings than traffic. Until Rusholme, of course.

On your first question.

- from the published map, the expected BRT route runs up Oxford Road, right along Portland Street, and then left up Princess Street; with a stop alongside the Art Gallery. Passengers could then switch to the Metrolink, or walk. An alternative might be to use Whitworth Street, rather than Portland Street; which would potentially allow a stop that would be closer to Piccadilly Station than is the current terminus on Piccadilly Gardens.

On your second.

- we don't know how much of the original BRT and cross-ciy bus proposals will survive in the reduced package due to be published (I hope) this autumn. The original called for:

BRT Leigh/Wigan to MRI: 8 buses an hour.
BRT East Didsbury - Christie - UNI - Piccadilly: 12 buses an hour
BRT Christie - Uni - Salford Central - Salford Uni: 12 buses an hour
BRT Christie - MRI: 6 buses an hour at peak

Cross City buses:

- East Didsbury - Kingsway - Anson Road - MRI - Oxford REoad - Albert Square; and then splitting with one service going up Deansgante and Bury New Road to Prestwich, and the other gong from Salford Central along Salford Crescent and Eccles Old Road to Eccles

- Chorlton - Whalley Range - Moss Lane - Oxford Road - Portland Street - Dale Street - Rochdale Road - Middleton

- Trafford Bar - Stretford Road - Booth Street - Oxford Road - Portland Street - London Road - Ashton Old Road - Ashton

Ideally, I suppose, most of the services currently coming into Manchester from Prestwich, Eccles, Ashton and Middleton would now run as cross-city services - amounting to about 15 buses an hour each at peak, and hence an extra 60 buses an hour in each direction along Oxford Road.

I would not expect that the East Didsbury - Piccadilly BRT service will survive in the new package, as it rather depended on the conversion of Piccadilly Gardens to be a BRT terminus, which then depended on the coaches being removed to Mayfield. But there would still appear to be a need for the 12 buses per hour through the Uni - perhaps they would all carry on as far as Salford Central. Otherwise, there would still be a need for a bus service from Didsbury to the Uni and the town centre (i.e. the classic 42 route), and if the BRT is not providing this, the 42 will need to.

However, I suspect a key objective is not only to replace terminating services with through services - hence cutting back the degree to which terminating buses occupy city centre space - there is also an intention to replace pay-onboard services with pre-pay services, as this much reduces the degree to which traffic is delayed by buses loading/unloading. Which is why, I suspect, the cross-city services will be given preferential routing.

[nerd]

The Salford Central consultation includes proposals for the Chapel Street as a mixed bus an general traffic corridor.

- Peak period Bus/cyclist lanes in both directions (currently only inward).
- only one general traffic lane (currently two).
- raised road surfaces to pavement height in the section facing Salford Cathedral - to link across with a new civic space opposite.
- general through traffic to be encouraged along Hampson Street; East Ordalll Lane to link to Trinity Way not Chapel Street.
- Transport interchange for Salford Central at the junction of Chapel Street and New Bailey Street, demolishing the two pubs.

The last looks pretty drastic to me; but I suspect may be justified on the grounds that bus services along the Cross-city corridor from the south might turn as Salford Central

[link_road_17/7]

I have never understood why, considering road improvements built, alongside the construction of Salford Crescent station (mid/late 80s), that the A6 was not 'diverted' away from Crescent/Chapel St, and onto the improved/rebuilt Albion Way (A5063)/Regent Road (A57) route.

Six lane urban motorway does not go into a two lane urban street. Of course, the plan was for the (original) Mcr & Salford Inner Ring Road to serve the end of Crescent, but that never materalised.

[M€trol1nk]

http://www.leighreporter.co.uk/leigh...tep.5560014.jp

[WatcherZero]

Councillors not knowing what their talking about. People still cant see that such a short distance is not practical for train and anyway the former tracks have already been built on in places. Having said that GMITAs argument that it cant get government funding for it is hogwash since the BRT is being funded from local taxes now but the cost of laying a completley fresh road-following metrolink line will be what 4, 5 times higher than constructing a new central lane?

[Vince Noir]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

Councillors not knowing what their talking about. People still cant see that such a short distance is not practical for train and anyway the former tracks have already been built on in places. Having said that GMITAs argument that it cant get government funding for it is hogwash since the BRT is being funded from local taxes now but the cost of laying a completley fresh road-following metrolink line will be what 4, 5 times higher than constructing a new central lane?

Not quite hogwash!
BRT may be funded locally, but crucially it will be a commercial service without the requirement for ongoing subsidy.
Say for the sake of argument local funding was available to fund a heavy rail link instead, it would require ongoing subsidy which would need to be provided by DfT, and for the points you already made, this would not offer value for money. Particularly when compared against a lower-cost (and commercially viable) BRT alternative .

[JohnnyLeigh]

Originally Posted by M€trol1nk

http://www.leighreporter.co.uk/leigh...tep.5560014.jp

Thank god for that independent councillor, thank you thank you thank you.

Shame the article is clearly on the side of Andy "I'm satan" Burnham, but for the Leigh Reporter to report something that isn't 100% the party line is a big step.
I guess even they couldn't completely ignore the local campaigns.

[M€trol1nk]

Sorry, Johnny, what particularly is it from the independent councillor you agree with?

You do realise the choice is BRT or nothing - see above for reasons? Is your preference for nothing?

[nerd]

Originally Posted by M€trol1nk

Sorry, Johnny, what particularly is it from the independent councillor you agree with?

I would certainly be very interested in Johnny's reasons for not supporting the proposals. BRT schemes commonly face strong hostility from groups in areas that might have been expected to benefit, which from a cynical perspective may be one reason why the DfT has tended to push them; they can appear to be offering investement conditional on demonstrated local support, which they can be confident will not be forthcoming.

So far as I have been able to determine; there are three sorts of opposition to the Leigh busway scheme:

- Leigh is entitled to something better, in the form of a restored rail service.

I am not sure that Leigh is actually the largest town within Greater Manchester not to be served by the railways: that title probably belongs to Middleton. But there does seem to be an implication (in both Leigh and Middleton) that the withdrawal of mainline railway services represents a downgrading of their status as a town. The problem is that a railway actually has to go somewhere - travel between Leigh and Walkden is never going to generate enough business in itself. But an increased service onwards Salford and Manchester cannot be achieved while capacity remains constricted at Salford Cresent.

- building the busway would destroy the recreational value of the disused rail line.

Those putting forwards this argument maintain that they are not opposed to the construction of an extra bus lane alongside the East Lancs road. As I understand it, the reseponse from GMITA is that bus services along the East Lancs Road do not currently appear to be financially viable. It is asserted that the busway would generate much more traffic; although this has yet to be demonstrated in practice.

- through Eccles Swinton and Salford, the proposed buses would take one lane away from the East Lancs road (whereas in Walkden the bus lane would be additional), hence reducing road capacity for private cars.

This seems to be the substance of the councillor's objection; and rests on the belief that congestion and climate change are spurious problems arising from a conspiracy linking central goverment and the environment movement; aimed at restricting individual freedoms. Paradoxically, the bus-evangelist movement in the United States commonly quotes studies that suggest that subtracting lanes from urban highways to form bus-only lanes represents the most cost-effective form of public transport investment. But - if you look on the MEN website - there are lots of people who oppose public transprt investment in principle.

But Johnny, are any of the above your reasons; or is there some negative aspect of the proposals that is not being properly considered?

[WatcherZero]

A precise and concise summary of peoples possible complaints nerd.

[BlackFriars]

Re Andy Burnham. A few years ago for about three days he was with a mate of mine who works in a print centre when they were doing some stuff for them. Apart from the chap looking quite odd and my mate thinking he wore eye liner and had a plastic sheen on his face that could give the Autons in Dr Who a run for their money, Burnham was asked where he thought he might be in five years time. ''I'll be Prime Minister.'' In deadly seriousness and without a hint of humour

And the chances of that are.................

[JohnnyLeigh]

Metrol1nk I agree with the councillors sentiment, and he is the only elected official actually voicing the views of the people!
Specifically he raises the point "the busway uses part of the route which would be required by heavy rail" which implies; we get this we kiss goodbye any chance of a rail line.


My reasons for not supporting the proposals:

1. The manner in which they have orchestrated this.
I used to work in Manchester before I went to uni. I used to get the 26 route in, it took 40 minutes, in fact time and again the bus driver had to pull in and wait at a stop for a few minutes so that the journey actually took the full 40minutes.
When they mooted the Busway GMPTE then changed the route so that it took over an hour, to try to bully us into supporting it. How is that fair, or how does that make sense? What is the obsession with this busway coming from Leigh?

2. Cost.
Isn't the much, much cheaper alternative to simply restore the original 26 route - IF this is supposed to be a scheme to benefit Leigh?

3. Yes to Busway means Never to the railway.
The busway would use part of the railway track, probably kissing goodbye to any chance of us getting a rail link in the manchester direction.

4. This is improves our links to Salford/Manchester. A plus.
But it ONLY improves our links to Manchester while causing reason 3.
A rail connection would improve our links to anywhere.

5. Public investment. We get this, thats our lot isn't it?
"Well thats Leigh fobbed off with some investment, can't say we never give them anything"
Yes we've recieved a bus route. Wow.
After shutting down our railway stations and our A&E unit.

6. Private investment. Will do next to nothing to attract investment to Leigh will it?
Give us a train station and suddenly we have links to anywhere and a large catchment area of 100,000 people, sat equi-distant from the huge centres of Liverpool and Salford/Manchester.

7. The simple fact that a railway link is the better option for the people of Leigh.

We deserve it, we are one of the biggest towns in Europe not to have a rail link

In terms of North-West development strategy it would be great too;
I'd settle for a rail link to Wigan as thats a big station and we can connect to anywhere via there, but Leigh is the perfect location between Liverpool and Manchester!
Its so infuriating looking at the map and you see the rail link from Liverpool to Manchester, that goes through Newton-le-willows, after N-L-W it goes through nothing till it hits the M60. Yet it runs 3 or 4km south of Leigh (45000 people, outlying towns of Atherton, Tyldesley, Lowton bump it up to 100,000).
Kinking that line to run through Leigh... would open up so many opportunities in my town, for jobs, for travel, it would be fantastic. The busway is another bus route.

Absolutely the change in the rail line would be far more expensive, but its benefit would be enormous.
The Busway has no benefit to Leigh and is a waste of money.
Original 26 route would be fine for us if thats the point of this (which we dont doubt that it isnt)

Unfortunately our opinions don't matter because we're not part of either the Manchester or Liverpool Areas and our 'centre' Wigan couldn't care less about us.
This will be built and it will improve transport links inside the M60 while Leigh is slowly a neglected, isolated oddity. (In the sense that despite stripping the town of service after service its population is stable).
Completely ignoring the sizeable relatively untapped market here and the huge potential for expansion.
And posting right near the end of the page means this comment will be brushed over probably!

[M€trol1nk]

Johnny - I think you do not understand who is running the buses judging from your comments about the 26 being stopped and re-instating the route!

Am I right in thinking essentially you want nothing to be done, as one day a rail route MAY be possible, but currently the rail network in Salford does not have the capacity?

[JohnnyLeigh]

Yep. If there is some excuse on the salford end (I don't understand that), then do the wigan-leigh rail link.