GO Electrification

[manrush]

According to this railway gazette article, the study shown in the print recommends that the Pearson rail link be electrified first. I wonder if the electric traction would be for GO commuter trains going to the airport rather than the airport express DMU.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...tion-plan.html

LOL thats an embrassment....it takes us 2-3 years to electrify...a few lines. Our New Haven line overhaul project is taking 20 years were 10 years in....but thats a full Catenary , Bridge , Track and Tunnel replacement project. The Catenary along the 61 mile long project is 70% replaced.....only took 6 years. 1-2 tracks at a time , keep in my its a 4 track line...... Now the reason i say this is because it should not be taking you that long to electrify that tiny amount of trackage.

I'm sure Metrolinx already has excuses on hand as to why electrification will take so long. And I bet one such excuse will be "it's too expensive."

[JustinB]

Or "needs more studies."

[allurban]

Originally Posted by JustinB

Or "needs more studies."

Or the real reason - the province only wanted to spend money on the studies - they never actually thought the things would get built.

Honestly tho - I would love to see them build the electrification in pairs across the city - namely Lakeshore East and West, Georgetown and Stouffville - that way we can get that cross city link that we really need.

Cheers, m

[ssiguy2]

Originally Posted by Epi

WOW so many years to electrify the network... damn I hate this country sometimes...

I think they messed up the way they released the information, or at least the media messed up in presenting it. While all the articles I read focused on the 'average 2.7 minute decrease in travel', there was very little dedicated to showing that they could run trains closer together. I for one would travel to work on train if it ran every 15-30 minutes instead of every hour.

Don't confuse your city to the country. Just because it takes Toronto decades to start 8km extensions doesn't mean it does in the rest of the country......aka Vancouver, Calgary.
How the hell does it cost $1.8 billion to electrify a short stint of a line? For that kind of money they could build a monorail or SkyTrain. Vancouver buils it's SkyTrain for about $130 million per km which includes stations and trains. This will be the rate for the soon to begin Evergreen Line.
For the outrageous prices Toronto spends per km on mass/rapid transit it doesn't deserve any money.

[JustinB]

What the hell are you rambling about? You never miss a chance to talk about Monorail, even it does not apply to the topic! The 1.6 Billion cost is to electrify the Lakeshore East, West, Georgetown, and ARL! That is much, much longer than 8km. We are talking over 100km here! Metrolinx is also a provincial agency, similar to Translink, with less power(thank god).

Take your monorail talk elsewhere, it does not belong in this thread.

[Epi]

LOL monorail!

[Elnerico]

[rbt]

Originally Posted by JustinB

What the hell are you rambling about? You never miss a chance to talk about Monorail, even it does not apply to the topic! The 1.6 Billion cost is to electrify the Lakeshore East, West, Georgetown, and ARL! That is much, much longer than 8km. We are talking over 100km here! Metrolinx is also a provincial agency, similar to Translink, with less power(thank god).

100km of service track, many additional km of storage yard, maintenance building adjustments, and new rolling stock (engines are several million each).

The report is very detailed. ssiguy2 has chosen not to read it and remains ignorant. I've discovered he also doesn't read much of Vancouver's transit documents either.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by kettal

Many of the benefits of electrification come from the use of EMU rather than locomotive.

I'd love to see shorter EMU trains being run more frequently by GO instead of long loco hauled trains, but as I understand it the real bottleneck is the lack of platforms at Union Station.

That's the reason GO uses those big long monster commuter trains.

Really? I always heard it was due to freight companies owning most of the track and not wanting GO to interfere with freight traffic (which would inevitably result if GO frequency got too much higher).

[Paul29]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Really? I always heard it was due to freight companies owning most of the track and not wanting GO to interfere with freight traffic (which would inevitably result if GO frequency got too much higher).

I heard that same as you did.

I also looked at the move 2020 thingy again. Quite ambitious plans I have to say. Even with all the work on the crossings, sidings and at Union, I can't see how they can have so many trains buzzing around Union at morning and evening rush hours.

I'm just waiting, waiting patiently for the all day service to Newmarket. I still haven't seen any formal plans except the goal of 2020. I don't want to wait that long.

[Nouvellecosse]

What would be really ideal is if they could not only electrify the rail corridors, but also upgrade and widen them enough to allow S-Bahn/RER/S-Tog type service all day with 6 EMU trains/hour peak, and 2-3 trains/hour off peak. GO transit could practically double its ridership and take a lot of cars off the road.

[Epi]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

What would be really ideal is if they could not only electrify the rail corridors, but also upgrade and widen them enough to allow S-Bahn/RER/S-Tog type service all day with 6 EMU trains/hour peak, and 2-3 trains/hour off peak. GO transit could practically double its ridership and take a lot of cars off the road.

Agreed +1

[allurban]

Originally Posted by Paul29

I heard that same as you did.

I also looked at the move 2020 thingy again. Quite ambitious plans I have to say. Even with all the work on the crossings, sidings and at Union, I can't see how they can have so many trains buzzing around Union at morning and evening rush hours.

I'm just waiting, waiting patiently for the all day service to Newmarket. I still haven't seen any formal plans except the goal of 2020. I don't want to wait that long.

It's a bit of both. Union station needs expansion and and there are some issues with running trains along the tracks owned by CP and CN (mostly with CP).

The Union Station project is about to get started.

Basically the trainshed will be refurbished and extended west and east to accommodate twice as many trains and connect passengers to new concourses. There will also be an expanded GO and VIA concourse at Union.

As for the issues with CN and CP, GO / Metrolinx now owns a lot of the rail south of Bloor - from The Junction down to Union and east all the way to Scarborough. GO/Metrolinx also owns the entire rail up to Stouffville. They are building a 3rd track along Lakeshore West to accommodate more train services (without issues with CN trains) and are using longer trains on the Milton Line to avoid issues with CP trains)

Cheers, m

[allurban]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

What would be really ideal is if they could not only electrify the rail corridors, but also upgrade and widen them enough to allow S-Bahn/RER/S-Tog type service all day with 6 EMU trains/hour peak, and 2-3 trains/hour off peak. GO transit could practically double its ridership and take a lot of cars off the road.

It's a great idea and probably an ultimate goal for GO and Metrolinx- they are taking some steps towards making it happen - agonizingly slow steps, but steps nonetheless.

The big question is who pays and how do they pay. GO gets a larger per-rider subsidy than TTC and has an 80% cost recovery (normally higher but they had to absorb the costs of Metrolinx being created).

If GO is going to carry more passengers all-day, someone is going to have to pay for the cost of the electrification, the daily running, the new train fleet and the compensation to CN & CP (or the cost of building exclusive track, like on Lakeshore West).

Cheers, m

[Paul29]

Originally Posted by allurban

The Union Station project is about to get started.

Basically the trainshed will be refurbished and extended west and east to accommodate twice as many trains and connect passengers to new concourses. There will also be an expanded GO and VIA concourse at Union.

I knew there was going to be quite a bit of work being done, but I forgot about the track extensions East and West. Even though I don't GO train it everyday anymore, I'm looking forward to seeing it when it's done.

Long overdue.

[Nouvellecosse]

So once the Union upgrade is complete, which will be the first GO service to be increased in frequency? And when?

[allurban]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

So once the Union upgrade is complete, which will be the first GO service to be increased in frequency? And when?

It looks like Georgetown is the first line due for an upgrade. It's mostly owned by GO, there is already demand for hourly daytime train service and possibly half-hourly - and there are fewer freight trains to deal with.

After that would be Lakeshore west, once the 3rd track comes on line.

Cheers, m

[Nouvellecosse]

I have to wonder how GO actually became as popular as it is in terms of ridership. I mean, when you compare GO trains to commuter train services in other similar cites like Boston, and Phil PA, the difference is astounding. Boston for instances runs 12 commuter rail routes totaling 643km and 123 stations (compared to GO's 7 routes totaling 390km and 59 stations) , diesel-electric locomotive trains with generally 1-2 trains per hour all day. Yet the average weekday ridership is only 127,800 compared to GO's 167,800 (train only).

Philly's SEPTA commuter service is even more impressive with 13 routes, entirely electric (many with EMUs) yet it's ridership is slightly lower the Boston's.

So how can GO attract such impressive ridership with such a small and infrequent network?

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I mean, when you compare GO trains to commuter train services in other similar cites like Boston, and Phil PA, the difference is astounding.

As I recall in Boston the train network is split and South/North stations are quite a hike between them. Someone from the South working in the North office cluster would need to transfer.

Very few GO customers transfer onto TTC to travel up Yonge. Even fewer transfer from one GO train to another.

In comparison to Boston, I expect the success of GO is that Union Station is within walking distance of a very large number of office jobs with no transfers required.

Customers make one extra transfer (House -> GO Station Lot -> Union Station).

It doesn't hurt that the walk from Union can be in a climate controlled environment (PATH) which is generally not the case in Boston. Actually, I wonder how much GOs ridership would drop if PATH did not exist?

[allurban]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I have to wonder how GO actually became as popular as it is in terms of ridership. I mean, when you compare GO trains to commuter train services in other similar cites like Boston, and Phil PA, the difference is astounding. Boston for instances runs 12 commuter rail routes totaling 643km and 123 stations (compared to GO's 7 routes totaling 390km and 59 stations) , diesel-electric locomotive trains with generally 1-2 trains per hour all day. Yet the average weekday ridership is only 127,800 compared to GO's 167,800 (train only).

Philly's SEPTA commuter service is even more impressive with 13 routes, entirely electric (many with EMUs) yet it's ridership is slightly lower the Boston's.

So how can GO attract such impressive ridership with such a small and infrequent network?

That's a really good question.

Part of the amazing ridership is because of the concentration of many passengers along the Lakeshore and Georgetown corridors. Those CN rail lines are hugely (and historically) important for passenger rail movements the Greater Toronto Area. Weston, the Junction, Bramalea, Brampton, Georgetown - they all thrived because of rail connections rather than bus connections.

Another factor is that the Lakeshore West line is absorbing trips that would otherwise be made on the perpetually jammed QEW - a huge source of ridership.

The other factor is that so many office towers are concentrated in the downtown core within a reasonable walking distance of Union Station.

That's probably the reason why no one has seriously looked at "GO all day" rail service and GO service crossing Toronto along the St. Lawrence & Hudson railway north of St. Clair - to jump from the existing bus service to rail service or to add rail service, well, someone is going to have to pay the costs.

I wish GO ran trains every 15 minutes all day. Heck, I wish they ran buses every 15 minutes all day. But the demand and the subsidy money are just not there.

Cheers, m