What Is Wrong With London?

[Tubeman]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

but where do the suburbs start??

I was raised there i can't help it didn't have a garden til i was 19 though!

Surely London is too diverse and different from place to place to have one de facto definition, Suburbanites or people not from the centre who still live on top of each other as i like to call them are as much Londoners as those living on Edgware road...

No there isn't a clear line between Central and suburbs, but it roughly equates to pre-and post-WW1 housing. I was brought up on the edge of the pre-WW1 area in Chiswick... at the other end of Brentford the Victorian houses give way to 1930's housing estates stretching all the way out to Osterley, Heston, Hounslow, Hanworth, Bedfont etc. It's the 1920's and 30's estates of semis and mini terraces which I find so awful: they encircle London and take up hundreds of square miles of London's area. Their lack of density means that local parades are forlorn windswept huddles of a chinese takeaway, a newsagent, a laundrette, a kebab shop, and maybe a Blockbuster video amongst empty units. People generally drive everywhere. After dark nylon clad kids hang around street corners on their mountain bikes necking cheap white cider dreaming that they're gangstas.

It's like you've got all the disadvantage of urban living with none of the advantages.

I'm happy to live on the 4th floor of a council block in King's Cross without even a balcony because I have Sadler's Wells 5 minutes away, Exmouth Market with probably more good restaurants than most small British towns 2 minutes away, Upper Street 10 minutes away and The West End 10 minutes bus ride away. I love the urban fabric around here: we're surrounded by beautiful Georgian squares like Wilmington, Lloyd Baker, Middleton, Granville... streets with real character and a comforting density unlike the wide open suburban windswept spaces in Dagenham or Morden.

The caveat is we're a Gay couple on a good combined income who enjoy the buzz of Old Compton Street on a Summer's evening, a good meal in a local restaurant, or taking in a ballet at Sadler's Wells. We don't give a toss about what the local schools are like or whether our kids would get in with the wrong crowd. What our area gives us: the culture, the bars, the food, the accessibility, nowhere else in the country let alone outer London could give us.

[bigbossman]

...

[wiggleyleeds]

Originally Posted by JimB

For a quiet life? Certainly.

For empty roads? Most assuredly.

For pollution-free air? You bet.

For outstanding rural landscapes? Unquestionably.

But for culture, for excitement, for the feeling of being at the centre of things (both nationally and globally), for high stakes finance, for politics, for buildings of global renown and importance, for new ideas, for night life, for fashion, for music, for sport, for people watching, for dining out, for shopping, for rare books, for antiques, for art galleries, for theatre, for museums..........the list could go on and on..........there's nowhere on these isles that comes remotely close to London.

Not many places that come remotely close to London on the entire planet for that matter.

All this sounds good, except for the fact that the majority of the 10 million people in london live within greater-london localities, and actually work within those localities - rarely visiting and enjoying central london. Often, these town centre localities with their small CBD are depressing drab places, with limited retail, leisure, restaurants, and void of cultural attraction, and such are worlds apart from living working and playin in a regional city. Yes, central London is on your door step, in much the same way that if you live in Dewsbury, or Oldham, or Walsall, then Leeds, Manchester, and Birmingham are on your doorstep.

People forget that London (Greater London) is hugely polycentric, with in many instances, little homogenity or interaction. For example according to travel to work data, for people in the london borough of Havering, and the london borough of Barking & Dagenham, more than 90% of workers from those areas actually work in those areas and their environs as opposed to central london. For the majority of these londoners who work, play, and live in these vast areas,.. moving to a regional city where you actually live as part of the city, rather than living in a small-time town with central london (that you rarely visit) 30 minutes away, would be a huge step up. I saw an old mate recently back down in London, who lives in Kinston upon thames, not far from where he went to uni. On friday night, we didnt want to make a huge clubbing night of it, and I didnt want him to do anything different to a usual weekend. We ended up going for a pizza hut in kingston, then we went to 3 or 4 bars in kingston, which were very busy, and then to a club in kingston. The next morning.. we went shopping in kingston town centre for some bits. All very nice. But it seems a step down to living in one of the regional cities where you actually live the city, rather than a suburban small-town locality. I've not been to a pizza hut in decades. Why would you when for the same price, my locality has restaurants that offer cuban, malaysian, kurdish, suhshi bars, independent steak houses, and scores and scores of restaurants serving modern european-fare all less than 6 minutes from where i live by train. Going to kingston, and just having a choice of pizza hut, and your usual bland identikit chains just seems a step down.

I remember one guy on here talking about how London is such a brilliant life for him, and that other cities in the UK wouldnt come close. When probed, it turns out he lives in lewisham, and works in lewisham, 5 days a week. He goes out round lewisham to the local bars there, and socialiszes with his mates there maybe once every few weeks when he isnt working. These small 'town' centres, that in many instances look like 70s designed dumps.. you might as well be living your life in dewsbury, and telling everyone its great that you live in Leeds

[Stefan88]

Originally Posted by Octoman

Brixton is way up there on the list of dumps in London. Elephant and Castle, Peckham, Camberwell

I went to all four of these areas when I stayed in London for a few days last year.
Elephant & Castle looks gloomy and grim but there weren't that many nutters around.
Peckham looked a bit grim to be fair.
Brixton didn't seem too bad.
Camberwell was the area I was staying in and to be honest it didn't seem that bad at all. The guy I was staying with said there had been a couple of stabbings in the nearby area but what I saw of it was alright.
It had tree lined streets with some lovely georgian and edwardian properties and then other streets, which didn't look quite as good.
The area I was staying was about a 10 minute walk from Denmark Hill station near Globe Road I think.

[belfastuniguy]

I like London

Spend a lot of time there and think its a rather fantastic place. Yeah it was a culture shock when I first visited on a school trip but I like that. Not living there 24/7 means I can pick and choose what I see when I stay and what to do which means I can experience all the delights it can offer whether cultural, gastronomic or general relaxing. Love visiting the galleries and museums, the best in country and some of the greatest in the world. Visiting the parks and gardens, have nice meals, great clubs etc etc etc.

Its not to everyone's taste but U like how people in London couldn't give a shit what others think and feel entirely open and free to do and look however they wish. I like that a lot and one of the nice things about the place.

Yeah its not perfect, but its a rather impressive city.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by wiggleyleeds

All this sounds good, except for the fact that the majority of the 10 million people in london live within greater-london localities, and actually work within those localities - rarely visiting and enjoying central london. Often, these town centre localities with their small CBD are depressing drab places, with limited retail, leisure, restaurants, and void of cultural attraction, and such are worlds apart from living working and playin in a regional city. Yes, central London is on your door step, in much the same way that if you live in Dewsbury, or Oldham, or Walsall, then Leeds, Manchester, and Birmingham are on your doorstep.

People forget that London (Greater London) is hugely polycentric, with in many instances, little homogenity or interaction. For example according to travel to work data, for people in the london borough of Havering, and the london borough of Barking & Dagenham, more than 90% of workers from those areas actually work in those areas and their environs as opposed to central london. For the majority of these londoners who work, play, and live in these vast areas.. moving to a regional city where you actually live as part of the city, rather than it being something that is on your doorstep, would be a huge step up.

I remember one guy on here talking about how London is such a brilliant life for him, and that other cities in the UK wouldnt come close. When probed, it turns out he lives in lewisham, and works in lewisham, 5 days a week. He goes out round lewisham to the local bars there, and socialiszes with his mates there maybe once every few weeks when he isnt working. These small 'town' centres, that in many instances look like 70s designed dumps.. you might as well be living your life in dewsbury, and telling everyone its great that you live in Leeds

You're talking about something altogether different - namely what people do with their lives and how they fail to appreciate what's on their doorstep. Perhaps you should start another thread about it?

My post was a specific response to Octoman's claim that there are better places to live in the UK. Of course, he is partly right. We each have a different shopping list of requirements for our ideal location. We each prioritise different qualities. But there can be no argument that, for all the things I listed, there is nowhere better in the UK to live than London (and few, if any, in the world).

[wiggleyleeds]

Originally Posted by JimB

You're talking about something altogether different - namely what people do with their lives and how they fail to appreciate what's on their doorstep. Perhaps you should start another thread about it?
.

i dunno, i think it is very relevant. I wasnt discussing what people 'choose' to do with their lives.. but rather the realities that are London.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by wiggleyleeds

i dunno, i think it is very relevant. I wasnt discussing what people 'choose' to do with their lives.. but rather the realities that are London.

It's relevant, alright..........just not to this particular discussion!

Yes, of course there are a lot of people who live in and around London who make no or little use of most of what London has to offer and they might just as well be living in any provincial town or city.

But the specific claim in question here is Octoman's assertion that "there are better places (than London) to live in the UK". And I repeat, that may well be true for some or even most people.

Clearly, however, I wasn't referring to such people. I was referring to those who do cherish and engage in and prioritise much of what London has to offer. For them, there is no better place to live than London.

[wiggleyleeds]

Thats fair enough.

But.. two things here..

(1) the same could be said about Bath. For those that cherish the things that Bath has to offer, for them. there is no better place to live than Bath. Seems pretty obvious. You have worded it now to only allow for one specific answer

(2) Ignoring that, there is another thing to consider. For some, they may value theatres and the cultural attractions unique to london, just as much as the type of person you describe.. but with financially realism thrown in here, they may also value good quality of life.. low crime, access to greenery, large disposible income, spacious living accomodation that isnt a bedsit, but rather a modest house and garden, and for that they prefer a regional city, where they work less hours, have this better quality of life with more money, and instead every other go for weekend city breaks to places like london, as well as many other ineteresting european cities, thus enjoying far more "cultural delight" than some who live in urban inner london and also like these things. So its not as clear cut as you describe. Moving to London, doesnt buy you a lifestyle.. you are either that way enlclined where you spend all your free time lapping up such things or you are not. Many people opt to move to london, or indeed are londoners already who choose to stay in london, simply to aspire to a lifestyle that includes doing the things you mentioned, by way of the fact that these things are on their doorstep, and so they *could* use them if they wanted to, but they find that due to the financial constraints of living in london, these things are not actually as accessible as they would be to someone bizarely living in manchester, in a similar job (less london weighting), who has more time and disposible income to enjoy such fruits. ....

... and on top of that.. the idea that you cant live in manchester, or leeds for example, and enjoy a fantastic selection of class restaurants from all over the world, or enjoy the theatre, or ballet, or comedy clubs, or jongleurs etc is silly. Unless you are visit these things 3 times a week obsessively, you wont find it inhibitive. If its clubbing you like, with a great bar scene in numerous distinct districts within the city core, such cities offer a vibe that for many betters london - especially so if you are a student, due to the very high proportion of students in these cities. I was in manchester last week round the gay scene - and the vibe and atmosphere was fantastic.. much better than similar experiences around compton st, or earls court. Got chatting to plenty of people, a sizeable proportion of whome were actually from places like london and agreed.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by wiggleyleeds

Thats fair enough.

But.. two things here..

(1) the same could be said about Bath. For those that cherish the things that Bath has to offer, for them. there is no better place to live than Bath. Seems pretty obvious. You have worded it now to only allow for one specific answer

(2) Ignoring that, there is another thing to consider. For some, they may value theatres and the cultural attractions unique to london, just as much as the type of person you describe.. but with financially realism thrown in here, they may also value good quality of life.. low crime, access to greenery, large disposible income, spacious living accomodation that isnt a bedsit, but rather a modest house and garden, and for that they prefer a regional city, where they work less hours, have this better quality of life with more money, and instead every other go for weekend city breaks to places like london, as well as many other ineteresting european cities, thus enjoying far more "cultural delight" than some who live in urban inner london and also like these things. So its not as clear cut as you describe. Moving to London, doesnt buy you a lifestyle.. you are either that way enlclined where you spend all your free time lapping up such things or you are not. Many people opt to move to london, or indeed are londoners already who choose to stay in london, simply to aspire to a lifestyle that includes doing the things you mentioned, by way of the fact that these things are on their doorstep, and so they *could* use them if they wanted to, but they find that due to the financial constraints of living in london, these things are not actually as accessible as they would be to someone bizarely living in manchester, in a similar job (less london weighting), who has more time and disposible income to enjoy such fruits. ....

... and on top of that.. the idea that you cant live in manchester, or leeds for example, and enjoy a fantastic selection of class restaurants from all over the world, or enjoy the theatre, or ballet, or comedy clubs, or jongleurs etc is silly. Unless you are visit these things 3 times a week obsessively, you wont find it inhibitive. If its clubbing you like, with a great bar scene in numerous distinct districts within the city core, such cities offer a vibe that for many betters london - especially so if you are a student, due to the very high proportion of students in these cities. I was in manchester last week round the gay scene - and the vibe and atmosphere was fantastic.. much better than similar experiences around compton st, or earls court. Got chatting to plenty of people, a sizeable proportion of whome were actually from places like london and agreed.

You're overcomplicating things somewhat, fella. Let's simplify it again.

Forget the people who like what London offers but who find it too expensive; or who want a home with greater space; or who don't like the frenetic pace of life; or who, for any other reason, prioritise qualities that London lacks. Of course these people exist. But I wasn't talking about them any more than I was talking about the people who live in London but who might just as well, for all that they interact with the city, live in Milton Keynes or Leicester.

I was talking about the people who do prioritise London's qualities above all the qualities that other locations offer. That's it. Simple. No further clarification required.

And it's not that Manchester or Leeds or Birmingham and the like are culture free wildernesses. I never suggested that they were so I'm not quite sure where your "silly" jibe is aimed. What is beyond question, though, is that none of the provincial cities can offer more than a small fraction of the diversity and abundance that London has to offer.

Furthermore, my (far from comprehensive) list included certain intangibles that can only be found when living in one of the world's great cities. People who love or gravitate to cities like London, Paris and New York often do so for no other reason than that it feels like they are somewhere where momentous events occur; where globally important decisions are taken; where trends originate. There is a buzz, an electricity, an edginess, a perceptible tingle of excitement that is part and parcel of living in such a city. You might dismiss that merely as people living vicariously, through the city. But it is, nevertheless, a real phenomenon.

And yes, of course there are people for whom there is nowhere better to live than Bath - because that is where all those things that they cherish above all are most readily and abundantly available. That was precisely the point. I was never aiming for an earth shattering revelation about London. I was merely pointing out to Octoman the highly subjective nature of his original assertion.

So let's move on, eh? This dead horse has been flogged quite enough.

[gooch23]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

OK OK another of the shit talk, I was born and raised in this fair city, have family dotted all over it and would say i know it pretty damn well. London is a shit hole, but it's the best damn shit hole in the whole world!!

All this culture London has is irrelevant to most Londoners. What makes London a great city for me is the buzz and the feeling, the comparitive excellence of public transport and the just never ending mass of people and places to go out. And when i say that i am not talking central i am talking from Brixton to Bromley from Camden to Croydon. It such a vast and diverse place that it is easy for someone to live in their bubble in Woolwich and never have heard of Tooting or Putney. There are many people who don't even venture out of their area, some because they are sad and fear being beaten up others because there is no need to.

People saying living in Streatham is no difference to solihull, yes in asthetic terms maybe, but Solihull just ain't London. London has that untouchable vibe that you don't get anywhere else, for me London feels different and is different.

Oh and there is nowhere really in this country with the level of ethnic and cultural diversity, that may be a problem to racists but to those who like that sort of shit it's big!

BBM... Im from Blackheath and im missing my southeast london mate..

[gooch23]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

I know what you mean about hounslow way got family in Hanworth and Whitton which aren't too bad, but Isleworth, Brentford etc are scummy to the nth degree.

Round my area is a bit different though, Woolwich was developed independently on the Arsenal. And is very Urban, feels like central, but then then if you go towards central london, it feels more suburban going through old charlton. New charlton and east greenwich is urban but that's to do with the river.

Round my way places like Eltham, abbey wood, Welling, Mottingham, Erith, Bexleyheath are what you are talking about, especially Eltham what red brick estates as far as the eye can see

Croydon is the perfect example actually



I see your point



Like i said it really depends there are some dense places far out there, especially along the river, it's pretty dense in a strip out to woolwich, and central croydon is pretty dense too.

Dagenham is depressing, Mordon not so much. I'd say the most dumpish place in London i've been is New addington a council estate surrounded by fields, although a friend from Bromley would nominate Biggin Hill!



It's an each to their own thing really isn't it...

True ive lived in all parts of London but i love my south east london..its just so varied,charismatic and and interesting with some brilliant neighbourhoods..Greenwich..deptford..blackheath..lewisham..catford..woolwich..peckham..new cross..its poor,its rich,it has your right a vibe and has everything you could possibly do..at half the price Also having lived in places like neasden,wembley and harrow i laugh when i hear north londoners slag off south london Im now living in surrey and the place is ok and has some beautiful villages and pubs but i realise it will never be home.

[Jonesy55]

I think that the major problem with London is that there are too many fried chicken shops, seriously they are everywhere, how can one city eat so much crappy fried chicken?

That and some places are exceptionally dirty (other areas though are very smart and clean).

London does have a huge number of nutters and mentalists but I think that's also the case in NYC, Paris etc, big cities seem to promote mental illness in some people.

Apart from that it's great, I have no desire to live there, I simply couldn't afford a decent sized family house in a half-decent location for one thing and the levels of crime and crappy schools mean there are much better places to raise kids imo unless you have tons of money. I love visiting though, I was there last weekend.

[Karldiff]

I lived in London for 7 years before returning to Cardiff, mostly south London but also in east London for a bit. I loved it, even the last year when I was holed up in a crappy bedsit in Balham which isn't exactly how you picture 'swinging London'. There is something indefinable about living in what is a great city. It's a feeling of being part of something and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

It's true that most people who live in London don't take advantage of it's cultural facilities. Quite a lot of it is there for the tourists anyway. I have a better 'cultural life' for want of a better phrase in Cardiff. There's lots of things that I don't miss about London - overpriced crappy rental property, the 'Misery Line' journey to work, the pretentiousness, the insularity of quite a lot of people living in London (it's a strange irony that many of it's inhabitants are extremely insular and parochial despite living in the most culturally diverse city in Europe). But I do miss the amount of gigs going on, the feeling that I could step out of work on a Tuesday evening with no plans and literally end up doing anything, the restaurants and most of all the great Victorian/Edwardian pubs. For sheer variety and number London pub life kicks the arse of anywhere else in Britain by some distance.

BUT all of the above changes as soon as you have kids. I wouldn't bring up kids in London and most people I know feel the same. Thats why you see a mass exodus of thirty somethings (mostly white and middle class it has to be said) to Surrey, Berkshire or the cities and towns from whence they originally came when they were in their early twenties.

[Langur]

Originally Posted by Jonesy55

I think that the major problem with London is that there are too many fried chicken shops, seriously they are everywhere, how can one city eat so much crappy fried chicken?

That and some places are exceptionally dirty (other areas though are very smart and clean).

London does have a huge number of nutters and mentalists but I think that's also the case in NYC, Paris etc, big cities seem to promote mental illness in some people.

Apart from that it's great, I have no desire to live there, I simply couldn't afford a decent sized family house in a half-decent location for one thing and the levels of crime and crappy schools mean there are much better places to raise kids imo unless you have tons of money. I love visiting though, I was there last weekend.

Fried chicken joints, crappy schools, crime, and dirtiness are found only in run-down areas of London. Why do you take the worse half of London as evidence of the whole city? What about all the nice areas? Do you really think that somewhere like Chelsea (or any part of West/Central London) or suburbs like Richmond or Hampstead are dirty, crime ridden, have crap schools, and fried chicken as the main eating option??

[larven]

Originally Posted by JimB

Life isn't fair, mate.

Never has been. Never will be.

Get used to it.

You've just highlighted another problem with London and its inhabitants with this response.

[bigbossman]

...

[cle]

Wiggly - the gay scene in Manchester is pathetic compared to London, or even Brighton.

It's based purely on going out on the piss, drugs and shagging - one street of bars which are basically Yates's but full of gays. No shops, cafes anything like that - where in Manchester is the gay book shop, or gay owned restaurant, estate agent for gays, lesbian coffee shop doing poetry etc...

The friendliness is due to northerners being friendly, it's not a rounded gay community though. Canal St is basically a provincial Booze Britain street for gays, not a community unless you consider them all connected through their shared cheap coke dealers.

[.Adam]

I am fortunate enough to live in Central London, however I have lived in a number of places across London, the good, and the bad, and everyone one has had redeeming features. I think a lot of people who live outside of London just aren't London people.. and by that I mean people who like to be on the go all the time, and arent afraid to enjoy London to the full and make the most of everything, I am very biased because I love my city with a great passion, it is often called the Greatest City in the world, and with every city with such a huge population you are going to get bad areas and crazy people! .. but I genuinley believe its just all a part of the bigger picture, A crazy 24hour city with its great, crazy , mad , eccentric civilians! . you either love it.. or you hate it.

[larven]

Well I neither love nor hate London. When people say its something you either 'love or hate' it can be true in the case of Marmite. In many other cases it can be to suggest that something should trigger a very strong emotion one way or the other, when in fact it does neither. The latter being infinitely less preferable, you know the saying 'there's only one thing worse than being talked about....and that's not being talked about'.