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Old June 3rd, 2009, 02:01 AM   #61
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Manila-bound seaman feared dead in plane crash

MANILA, Philippines - It was supposed to be a 12 hour-flight for Arden Jugueta from Brazil to France where he planned to take a connecting flight to Manila to be reunited with his wife Miguela.

But the Filipino seafarer, whose vessel was docked in Rio de Janeiro, never reached Paris.

Just three hours after Air France flight 447 left the Galeao International Airport in Brazil, the twin-engine, long-haul, medium-capacity passenger jet, vanished in the Atlantic Ocean, the Brazilian Air Force said.

Search and rescue operations were immediately sent by Brazil, France and Spain near the island of Fernando de Noronha, where the aircraft last sent a distress signal. But even before the first body of the passenger of Air France flight 447 was fished out of the icy depths of the Atlantic, the Philippine government has already braced for the worst.

"Foreign Affairs Secretary Alberto G. Romulo extends the DFA's deepest condolences to Mrs. Miguela Jugueta, the wife of Mr. Jugueta, and his family," the Philippine Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) said in a statement.

If all 228 people were killed, it would be the deadliest commercial airline disaster since Nov. 12, 2001, when an American Airlines jetliner crashed in the New York City borough of Queens during a flight to the Dominican Republic, killing 265 people, an Associated Press report said.

Relatives have already trooped to the Paris-Charles de Gaulle airport where their loved ones were supposed to meet with them on Monday morning. But they might wait just a little longer.

On board the flight were 61 French citizens, 58 Brazilians, 26 Germans, nine Chinese and nine Italians. A lesser number of citizens from 27 other countries also were on the passenger list, including two Americans.

Aviation investigators were pondering on several theories on how the high-tech aircraft plunged into the depths of the Atlantic Ocean after reporting bad weather in its path.

In a separate AP report, Brazil's largest airline, TAM, released a statement late Monday saying that pilots flying one of its commercial flights from Paris to Rio spotted what they thought was fire in the ocean along the Air France jet's route.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 02:10 AM   #62
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As others have said, this is a very unusual crash. Turbulance and lightning strikes usually don't bring planes down. The problem is we may never find out what happened with the black boxes at the bottom of the ocean.

As for the NYC crash in 2001, I had forgotten about that Queens crash just two months after 9/11. That must have been a very scary time for New York before we knew that terrorism could be ruled out.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 03:08 AM   #63
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Could it be hail hiting the aircraft?
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 05:49 AM   #64
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Brazil Finds Air France Wreckage, All Feared Dead
June 03, 2009 08:58 AM
By Pedro Fonseca and Maria Pia Palermo
Source: http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v5....php?id=415455

RIO DE JANEIRO (Reuters) - Brazilian military planes found wreckage on Tuesday from an Air France jet that crashed in the Atlantic Ocean with 228 people aboard, the airline's worst disaster in its 75-year history.

Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said there was "no doubt" that a 5-km strip of debris in the high seas was from the Airbus A330 that went missing in stormy weather early on Monday. Experts were certain that all aboard died.

"The remains, the wreckage, are from the Air France plane," a somber Jobim said at a news conference in Rio de Janeiro, where the plane took off for Paris on Sunday night.

Distraught relatives who had been praying for a miracle said they had given up.

"The last bit of hope that we had no longer exists ... Before a lot of us were hoping that the plane could have landed on an island or something like that, but no more," said Aldair Gomes, whose son was on the plane.

Airplane seats, an orange buoy, wiring, pieces of metal and fuel stains were spotted in the water by Brazilian air force pilots about 1,200 km northeast of the coastal city of Recife.

So far no bodies have been sighted, and pulling out bits of wreckage may not start until Wednesday when navy ships with divers arrive.

It is likely to be extremely difficult to find the flight data and voice recorders that hold clues to why the plane fell out of the sky in the middle of the night. The recorders could be on the ocean floor at a depth of 2,000 to 3,000 meters (6,600-9,800 feet), Jobim said.

Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said he was confident that the black boxes would be found.

"I think a country that can find oil 6,000 meters under the ocean can find a plane 2,000 meters down," he told reporters in Guatemala, referring to recent oil finds by Brazil's state energy company in ultra-deep waters.

The recorders are designed to send homing signals for up to 30 days when they hit water, but many do not float well. It could be among the hardest recovery tasks since the exploration of the Titanic, one expert said.

"If you think how long it took to find the Titanic and that the debris would be smaller, you are looking for a needle in haystack," said Derek Clarke, joint managing director of Aberdeen-based Divex, which designs and builds military and commercial diving equipment.

MYSTERY, RELATIVES WANT ANSWERS

Authorities were baffled by how a storm could have caused the modern plane operated by three experienced pilots to crash without sending a mayday call.

Experts from France have arrived in Brazil to lead the investigation with help from Brazilian teams.

Brazil's air force last had contact with Flight AF 447 at 0133 GMT on Monday when it was 565 km from its coast. The last automated signals, which reported an electrical failure, were received about 40 minutes later.

One theory is that a lightning strike or brutal weather set off a series of failures. But lightning routinely hits planes and could not alone explain the downing, aviation experts said.

Two Lufthansa jets believed to have been in the same area half an hour before the Air France mishap are expected to provide clues for investigators, the World Meteorological Organization said.

Among the 216 passengers were executives from major companies that have ramped up investments in Brazil in recent years and European tourists returning from its famous beaches as well as seven children and one baby.

"My son died on his birthday," said a tearful Diana Raquel, mother of British-based Brazilian dentist Jose Rommel Amorim, who turned 35 on Sunday.

French electrical equipment firm CGED said 10 of its staff were on the plane with their partners after visiting Brazil, which declared three days of mourning.

© REUTERS 2009
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 08:49 AM   #65
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Could it be microbursts due to the T-storm activity? But then, how could that trigger an electrical failure? Are planes designed to withstand multiple and simultaneous lightning strikes?
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 10:02 AM   #66
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this is awful news, the aircraft accident investigators better find out what happened so future crashes like these are avoided
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 06:20 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Could it be microbursts due to the T-storm activity? But then, how could that trigger an electrical failure? Are planes designed to withstand multiple and simultaneous lightning strikes?
Microbursts are only a threat if the plane is flying at low altitude...very low altitude as in when it is coming to land because you do not have enough altitude to recover after the tail wind strikes. Also modern airliners carry radars that can detect microbursts. I am not even sure microbursts can occur at such altitude, as IMO they occur at lower altitudes.

IMO, Its either got to do with something that was not done correctly since it went to the hanger on April 16th or they misread the weather ahead of them/there was a sudden change in weather.

From the pictures shown, it appears the weather ahead of them was not good but they were going through what looked like an opening in the T-Storm. Its known that certain types of clouds do not reflect radar making it look like an opening when in fact its the worst part of the storm.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 06:48 PM   #68
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International operation for Air France accident
3 June 2009
Agence France Presse

The operation underway Wednesday to recover debris -- and maybe bodies -- from the Air France jet that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean involved several nations, chief among them Brazil and France.

Here is a snapshot of the means being deployed:

AIR

At least 11 aircraft are conducting sweeps to locate debris from the crash site, 1,000 kilometers (600 miles) off Brazil's northeastern coast.

They include nine Brazilian aircraft: three air force Hercules, two coast guard Bandeirantes, an Amazonas plane, an Embraer R-99 with synthetic aperture radar, and two air force helicopters.

A French Falcon 50 and a US P-3 Orion are also flying over the zone from a Brazilian base in Natal.

Brazil's air force said a French plane fitted with radar was also dispatched from a French base on the other side of the Atlantic, in Senegal.

SEA

Three cargo ships -- one French and two Dutch -- are already at the crash site, having been rerouted there on Tuesday.

They are to be joined from Wednesday by five Brazilian navy vessels able to recover debris and bodies.

The first of the Brazilian ships will arrive late Wednesday, with the others arriving through Friday. They comprise a patrol boat, two frigates, a corvette and a tanker with 600 tons of fuel that will permit the maritime operation to continue for weeks if necessary.

Each of the frigates has a crew of 250 men. The corvette has 60 sailors on board, and the patrol boat has a 30-person crew. The tanker has 120 sailors.

COMMAND

A Brazilian air force command center in the northern city of Recife is coordinating the aerial search, backed up by a secondary facility in Natal.

The airport on Brazil's Fernando de Noronha, an archipelago 400 kilometers into the Atlantic and the closest point to the seach zone, is serving as an auxiliary center. It is the first place that debris and bodies will be brought by helicopter from the crash zone.

RELATIVES

In Brazil, relatives of those on the flight are being looked after in a hotel close to the international airport in Rio de Janeiro, from where the ill-fated Air France plane left for Paris.

BODIES

A morgue has been prepared in Recife to receive any bodies that might be flown in from Fernando de Noronha.

Brazilian police in Recife have already formed forensic teams to identify human remains.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 05:21 AM   #69
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I am hearing news tonight that multiple agencies are reporting there was no lightning around the plane when it went down. Turbulance should not have brought it down either. This is becoming quite a mystery. I also heard there was a bomb threat called in a few days earlier on an Air France flight from Brazil to France. Not sure how often that occurs, but it needs to be investigated.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 06:56 AM   #70
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New Air France debris found, explosion unlikely
June 04, 2009 09:54 AM
By Miguel Lo Bianco
Source: http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v5....php?id=415717



A slick that is believed to be from the fuel of Air France flight AF447 is seen
from the window of a Brazilian Air Force plane patroling the crash area in the
open Atlantic Ocean some 745 miles (1,200 km) northeast of Recife, June 2,
2009. REUTERS/Brazilian Air Force/Handout


FERNANDO DE NORONHA, Brazil (Reuters) - Search crews flying over the Atlantic found debris from a crashed Air France jet spread over more than 55 miles (90 km) of ocean on Wednesday, reinforcing the possibility it broke up in the air.

But Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said the existence of large fuel stains in the water likely ruled out an explosion, undercutting speculation about a bomb attack.

"The existence of oil stains could exclude the possibility of a fire or explosion," he said at a news conference in Brasilia. "If we have oil stains, it means it wasn't burned."

Experts said extreme turbulence or decompression may have caused the Airbus A330 to splinter two days ago on its way from Rio de Janeiro to Paris with 228 people on board.

The first Brazilian navy ship was nearing the crash area, about 685 miles (1,100 km) northeast of Brazil's coast, to begin retrieving debris. French officials said they may never discover why the plane went down as the flight data and voice recorders may be lost at the bottom of the ocean.

Air force pilots searching the area have reported no signs of survivors and officials said recovering bodies may be extremely difficult.

"As well as bodies sinking, you also have problems along the coast of Pernambuco (state) that you know about," Jobim said in reference to sharks. He added bodies could take several days to float to the surface.

Newly spotted traces of the plane included a 12-mile (20-km) fuel stain and various objects spread across a 3-mile (5-km) area, including one metallic object 23 feet (7 metres) in diameter.

The plane sent no mayday signals before crashing, only automatic messages indicating electrical faults and a loss of pressure shortly after it entered stormy weather.

"If the decompression reading was correct, it caused a structural problem ... it is a very violent event that causes pieces to come apart and that explains why the wreckage is spread out so much," said Kirk Koenig, a commercial pilot and president of Indianapolis-based Expert Aviation Consulting.

"It's like when you see an Indy 500 race car being hit and pieces start to come off," he added.

Aviation trade publications focused on a series of warnings in recent months issued by U.S. and European regulators about electronic systems on A330s and A340s that could throw planes into sharp dives. The directives covered ADIRUs -- air data inertial reference units -- which feed crucial information to the cockpit to help fly planes.

With officials struggling to explain how a modern aircraft could have crashed in stormy weather that is routine on the trans-Atlantic route, there was speculation a bomb could have caused the worst crash in Air France's 75-year history.

The airline said on Wednesday it had received an anonymous telephone warning that a bomb was on a flight leaving Buenos Aires on May 27, four days before the crash. A spokesman said the plane was checked, no bomb was found and the aircraft left an hour and a half late. He added that such alerts were relatively common.

Given the challenging location of the crash, its cause may never be known.

"I am not totally optimistic. We cannot rule out that we will not find the flight recorders," said Paul Louis Arslanian, the head of France's air accident investigation agency.

MINI-SUB ON ITS WAY

France is dispatching a mini-submarine that can explore to a depth of 19,680 feet (6,000 metres) and will try to locate the Airbus' flight data and voice recorders, which should shed light on the crash.

The recorders are designed to send homing signals for up to 30 days when they hit water, but there is no guarantee they even survived the impact with the sea, Arslanian said.

Brazil is leading its search effort from Fernando de Noronha, a sparsely populated volcanic archipelago and nature reserve off its northeastern coast.

It has mobilized 11 air force planes, four navy vessels with divers and a tanker for the retrieval operation that Jobim said was being carried out in a 120-mile (193-km) radius.

Jorge Amaral, a Brazilian air force colonel, said the long strip of metal found on Wednesday was the biggest piece that search crews had seen so far.

"We are considering this 7-metre piece to be part of the plane, possibly part of the side, a piece of steel. It could be part of the fuselage or the tail," he told reporters.

The French investigation will have its first report ready by the end of the month, and will be led by Alain Bouillard, who took charge of the investigation into the crash of an Air France Concorde in 2000.

France held an ecumenical religious ceremony for relatives and friends of those on the plane at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris on Wednesday, attended by President Nicolas Sarkozy.

© REUTERS 2009
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Old June 4th, 2009, 08:50 AM   #71
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Crash cause looks elusive
Flight recorders will be tough to find, investigators say

By Daniel Michaels, Andy Pasztor and Max Colchester
4 June 2009
The Wall Street Journal Europe

French air-accident investigators said salvage crews may never find the "black boxes" from an Air France jetliner that crashed in the Atlantic Ocean early Monday, making their task of determining what downed the plane unusually difficult.

The realization that the two black boxes -- which record flight data and cockpit conversations -- may not be retrieved could renew the aviation industry's interest in developing broadcasting systems that allow critical safety data to stream automatically from a troubled plane to receivers on the ground.

"If an aircraft has big problems, this would give it the capability to instantly downlink data" from the flight-data recorder, said Robert Francis, a former member of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board who is among the safety experts advocating for new systems. "I am sure the idea will be explored after this crash."

At a news conference near Paris on Wednesday, Paul-Louis Arslanian, director of France's Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses, or BEA, said there were no indications of problems before Air France Flight 447 took off from Rio de Janeiro for Paris with 228 people aboard.

Brazilian military officials on Wednesday reported finding four areas of debris in the Atlantic Ocean off the country's northeast coast, including "various objects" spread over 75 square kilometers and an oil slick 20 kilometers long. On Tuesday, they had reported the first sign of debris, which they said almost certainly came from the Airbus A330.

Investigators will now try to determine where the two-engine plane hit the water and where its wreckage is on the sea bed.

A priority for searchers will be finding the plane's two digital recorders, which could be crucial in determining why the plane lost contact and crashed after flying through storms and turbulence.

But considering the ocean depth and rough undersea terrain in the area being examined, investigators said retrieving the units could be hard.

"I am not optimistic," Mr. Arslanian said. "The sea [bed] is not only deep but mountainous," he added.

Without the flight recorders, investigators could have difficulty determining why the plane crashed. Passengers, airlines, regulators and Airbus itself want to know if the jetliner plunged because of a one-time event, fundamental design flaws, terrorism, or something else. Airbus is a unit of European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co.

Mr. Arslanian said black boxes aren't always necessary to establish the cause of a crash. Without them, however, investigators probably need to examine significant amounts of physical evidence, including wreckage, which could also be difficult to retrieve.

Adding to the urgency is the recorders' limited ability to signal their location. Each has a beacon that can be detected from many thousands of meters away, according to their manufacturer, Honeywell International Inc. Mr. Arslanian said the range could be only 1,000 meters. Adding to the problem: The boxes have only enough battery power to last around 30 days.

Investigators haven't faced comparable challenges in finding and retrieving black boxes since the mid-1980s. Following some jetliner crashes in deep water, it took experts months to recover black boxes and wreckage even after they were located.

As a result, Monday's crash has sparked discussion of a new way to use on-board information to enhance safety: transmit real-time operational data to the ground in emergency situations.

Planes such as the Air France Airbus already relay routine maintenance information to operations centers at headquarters, which allow ground staff to fix systems quickly and reduce delays. Such messages were the final transmissions sent from the plane shortly before it disappeared Sunday night.

The messages came over a span of three minutes, Mr. Arslanian said. Safety experts say that means the plane didn't immediately break up in the air and would have had ample time to transmit safety data, had it been equipped to do so.

Now, safety officials propose doing that, by using existing systems to beam crucial flight-data recorder measurements -- such as engine parameters, pilot commands or acceleration forces. Installing the systems into planes, they say, might require only software adjustments.

The idea isn't just theory: Engine makers including General Electric Co. and Rolls-Royce PLC already use live streaming data to monitor the performance of their jets. A number of helicopter operators also use advanced satellite communication systems both to track the location of their choppers and to gather data signaling potential mechanical or electrical problems

Dick Healing, another former NTSB board member, said Wednesday that a burst of real-time data transmitted in emergency situations "is a very good idea" and "technically, it's totally possible today."

Potential obstacles to the plan include the cost of changing the software and the possible need for more satellite-transmission capacity, which can be expensive. Monitoring and handling information as it arrives would also require more sophisticated systems than those used now for maintenance updates.

---

Antonio Regalado contributed to this article.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 08:56 AM   #72
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the pilot reported cumulonimbus clouds... they also said that the plane could have encountered winds with speeds as high as 160kmh...

combine that with the danger of these cumulonimbus clouds (probably hail) and you have a recipe for disaster...
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Old June 4th, 2009, 11:08 AM   #73
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Looks like they underestimated the T-storm and flew into it. Or maybe it was spread over a huge area and there wasn't much alternative to go around except maybe turning back. Did other pilots also fly over that area at that time? I presume all EU bound flights from SA would be flying through that area.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 12:11 PM   #74
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GPS tracks phones, cars, but not planes
Air France crash renews call for end to radar systems

4 June 2009

CHICAGO (AP) - Get lost in the woods and a cell phone in your pocket can help camping buddies find you. Drive into a ditch and GPS in your car lets emergency crews pinpoint the crash site. But when a transcontinental flight is above the middle of the ocean, no one on the ground can see exactly where it is -- in the air, or worse, in the water.

The disappearance of Air France Flight 477 and its 228 passengers over the Atlantic Ocean this week has critics of radar-based air traffic control calling on the U.S. and other countries to hasten the move to GPS-based networks that promise to precisely track all planes. Current radars are obsolete more than 200 miles (320 kilometers) from land.

"The technology's there -- we've had this stuff for 15 years and little's happened," said Michael Boyd, a Colorado-based airline analyst. "My BlackBerry can be used to track me, so why can't we do it with planes?"

U.S. officials have discussed setting up such a network since the 1990s and the technology is being tested in parts of the country, including Alaska and off the Gulf Coast. A few carriers, like Southwest, already use GPS to help planes make quicker landings that burn less fuel.

But full implementation, estimated at a cost of $35 billion, has languished amid funding delays and disputes over technical complexities. Although Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has said the project will be among the Federal Aviation Administration's top priorities in the Obama administration, the existing radar system is likely to remain for at least another decade.

"It's a crude system they're using now," said Robert Poole, an aviation expert with the free market-oriented Reason Foundation. "For 100 dollars, you can run down and buy a GPS system, put it in your car and know exactly where you are. But planes don't have it."

Some European and Asian countries are moving more quickly toward establishing pricey satellite systems. But many other countries lag behind, including Brazil, where the ill-fated Air France took off Sunday.

Current air traffic systems do not allow controllers to see a transoceanic plane on radar until it is within about 200 miles (320 kilometers) of land. Instead, controllers often estimate a plane's location based on flight plans and departure times. Such imprecision leaves planes vulnerable in emergencies, such as water landings, Boyd said.

"If a plane ditches and there are survivors, you may not be able to get to it fast enough," he said. "And if an airplane was hijacked in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, we wouldn't know until it pops up somewhere else."

A reported electrical system failure aboard Flight 477 likely would have knocked out any GPS devices even if the flight had been equipped with that technology. But under a satellite system, rescuers would have known the aircraft's precise location when the failure occurred, presumably making the search area much smaller and helping authorities locate the wreckage faster. That timeliness can also be crucial in determining a cause of a crash.

Radar quality varies from country to country. For example, many U.S. control centers at least enable planes to send more frequent updates about their location, even when beyond radar's reach.

But over oceans, including vast blind spots in the middle of the Atlantic on U.S.-European routes, pilots usually have to resort to calling controllers with estimated positions every hour or so. The call-ins can frustrate pilots, especially in and around South America, where radio and radar coverage can be patchy, said retired airline pilot Vaughn Cordle, who lives in the Washington area.

"There's nothing worse than going through the painful exercise of trying to talk to someone and letting them know where you are," Cordle said. "The South American region can be more dangerous because pilots are sometimes on their own."

A plane failing to check in after more than two or three hours can be an air traffic controller's worst fear, said New York-based controller Pat McDonough.

"It's very disturbing to the controller to lose an aircraft -- you feel responsible," he said. "I sympathize with those guys watching the Air France flight."

GPS proponents say satellite-based air traffic systems provide another benefit that could have directly affected Flight 477, which disappeared into a band of towering thunderstorms. Such systems would collect information from around the globe and allow for real-time weather maps to appear on cockpit displays, giving pilots a tool to better determine how to navigate oncoming weather.

"The point is if we have GPS to monitor airplanes, could it save lives?" Boyd said. "The answer is clearly yes."
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Old June 4th, 2009, 12:14 PM   #75
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A summary of the final messages from Flight 447
3 June 2009

French and Brazilian officials have described a "burst" of messages from Flight 447 just before it disappeared.

A more complete chronology was published Wednesday by Brazil's O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper, citing an unidentified Air France source, and confirmed to The Associated Press by an aviation industry source with knowledge of the investigation:

-- 11 p.m. local time -- The pilot sends a manual signal saying the jet was flying through CBs -- towering cumulo-nimulus thunderheads.

-- 11:10 p.m. -- A cascade of automatic messages indicate trouble: The autopilot had disengaged, stabilizing controls were damaged, flight systems deteriorated.

-- 11:13 p.m. -- Messages report more problems: The system that monitors speed, altitude and direction failed. The main flight computer and wing spoilers failed.

-- 11:14 p.m. -- The final message indicates a loss of cabin pressure and complete system failure -- catastrophic events in a plane that was likely already plunging toward the ocean.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 01:59 PM   #76
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This is a sad sad incident ..

i hope no more will happen.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #77
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how sad god bless all passengers crew members and their familes
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Old June 4th, 2009, 02:29 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
A summary of the final messages from Flight 447
3 June 2009

French and Brazilian officials have described a "burst" of messages from Flight 447 just before it disappeared.

A more complete chronology was published Wednesday by Brazil's O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper, citing an unidentified Air France source, and confirmed to The Associated Press by an aviation industry source with knowledge of the investigation:

-- 11 p.m. local time -- The pilot sends a manual signal saying the jet was flying through CBs -- towering cumulo-nimulus thunderheads.

-- 11:10 p.m. -- A cascade of automatic messages indicate trouble: The autopilot had disengaged, stabilizing controls were damaged, flight systems deteriorated.

-- 11:13 p.m. -- Messages report more problems: The system that monitors speed, altitude and direction failed. The main flight computer and wing spoilers failed.

-- 11:14 p.m. -- The final message indicates a loss of cabin pressure and complete system failure -- catastrophic events in a plane that was likely already plunging toward the ocean.
I'm afraid of hail hitting the plane...
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Old June 4th, 2009, 03:59 PM   #79
Excelsvr
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I'm afraid of hail hitting the plane...
Sounds like Southern Airways Flight 242 to me - only the results are much more disastrous
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Old June 4th, 2009, 04:18 PM   #80
ruifo
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Sounds like Southern Airways Flight 242 to me - only the results are much more disastrous
True! Southern Airways Flight 242 is a very intrigating case! A combination of hail damage and losing thrust on both engines in a severe thunderstorm, although the DC-9 is very diferent from the A332.
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