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Old December 2nd, 2013, 02:42 PM   #561
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China is indeed much more capitalist than the usa.
USA is more socialist than China.
Social welfare is not great in the US, however, it exceeds the welfare system in China.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 01:34 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Chinese metro planners are always doing the same. While they could have adopted the way Hongkong metro is built in terms of rolling stock. Large, only large A-size trains up to 12 cars per train. That is a solution. Instead, they are building lines that are far from even satisfying current needs, not least to provide an extra capacity for the future.
12 A Car stock is overkill and only runs on the East Rail Line, which is an old upgraded suburban railway line. Usually upgraded suburban lines get longer platforms due to most of their trackage not being underground. So its easy to extend platforms. Most HK MTR Lines have 8 A car long platforms ~190m long. Getting platforms that are any longer will not be cost effective. ~200m is the max economical platform length that most metro systems go for.
HK: 8 A car ~23m long each = ~184m long train
NY: 10 R160 cars 60ft each = 600ft = 183m ong train
Tokyo: 10 20m long cars = 200m long trains.

IMHO just get 8A cars for trunk regional/crosstown lines 6A for trunk lines for tier 1 and tier +2 cities
8-10B for trunk regional/crosstown lines and 6B for other lines for tier -2 and tier 3 cities
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 08:11 AM   #563
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Any updates on the tram system? Is there a seperate thread for it?
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 09:24 AM   #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
12 A Car stock is overkill and only runs on the East Rail Line, which is an old upgraded suburban railway line. Usually upgraded suburban lines get longer platforms due to most of their trackage not being underground. So its easy to extend platforms. Most HK MTR Lines have 8 A car long platforms ~190m long. Getting platforms that are any longer will not be cost effective. ~200m is the max economical platform length that most metro systems go for.
HK: 8 A car ~23m long each = ~184m long train
NY: 10 R160 cars 60ft each = 600ft = 183m ong train
Tokyo: 10 20m long cars = 200m long trains.

IMHO just get 8A cars for trunk regional/crosstown lines 6A for trunk lines for tier 1 and tier +2 cities
8-10B for trunk regional/crosstown lines and 6B for other lines for tier -2 and tier 3 cities
Well I meant up to 12, not necessarily 12. Anyway, it is much much cheaper to make trains longer than to build additional lines.

I think most of Chinese cities must have 8-car A-size trains when it comes to lines crossing downtowns. We here in Moscow have 8-car kind of B-size trains on most of lines with very short headways (up to 85-90 seconds) during rush hour and it is still overcrowded.

Sanghai has got 8A trains on lines 1 and 2 but all new lines are built again wit maximum of 6 cars. Why?

The same for Guangzhou where lack of lines and stations feels even harder.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 01:13 PM   #565
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I would also add that systems like metro have to consider comfort and passenger capacity rather than economic factors.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 04:41 PM   #566
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Well I meant up to 12, not necessarily 12. Anyway, it is much much cheaper to make trains longer than to build additional lines.
Yes but more lines is more coverage. Most Mainland Chinese cities are not arranged out like Hong Kong and will need a few more lines to fill in the gaps. Also they they don't need 80,000-95,000 ppl/hr/direction capacity like Hong Kong as their cities are not as dense.

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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
I think most of Chinese cities must have 8-car A-size trains when it comes to lines crossing downtowns. We here in Moscow have 8-car kind of B-size trains on most of lines with very short headways (up to 85-90 seconds) during rush hour and it is still overcrowded.
Moscow's urban spatial arrangement seems to be the cause of of that phenomenon. In the morning, everyone flows into the city from bedroom commieblock complexes to the city center then they flow back out into the periphery in the evening.

Chinese Cities are more decentralized with Multiple CBDs and more mixed urban land use so they don't have as much people flowing in one direction. Which means less capacity is needed as both direction is a little more effectively utilized.

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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Sanghai has got 8A trains on lines 1 and 2 but all new lines are built again wit maximum of 6 cars. Why?
Apart from the crosstown and loop lines of 4, 9, 11 6 cars should be fine. The lines I mentioned above should have opted for 8 car A sets.

Its also worth noting 90% of all lines are not running at max design capacity. Because of the national subway train shortage most subway lines in china apart from SHM Lines 6 and 8 and half the beijing subway lines have plenty of track capacity. Operators could add more trains into the lines, they just don't have any. Most lines in china are running at 4-3 min headways in rush hour or even more. Should the train shortage issue be removed most Chinese lines will have a 50% increase in capacity.

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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
I would also add that systems like metro have to consider comfort and passenger capacity rather than economic factors.
Yes but at the end of the day economic factors trump all other considerations. Also didn't you just say that longer trains is cheaper than building more lines? Yet more lines will improve passenger comfort?

Last edited by saiho; December 4th, 2013 at 07:17 AM.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 07:26 AM   #567
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Are there plans to do as you suggested? What they are doing are merely stop gap measures at best.
Nope its all in my head. However east beyond Tianhe Coach Terminal is apparently built to 6B car specs in preperation to rebuild that section of the line and through operate into Shiqiao section of Line 3. Which preps for the disconnection and rerouting of the Tianhe Coach Terminal Branch of line 3 into a new section towards Sun Yat-Sen University and the entire line will be renamed Line 10. While the leftover Shiqiao/Airport line will inter-operate with each other as Line 3 or the North South Express Line.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 09:21 AM   #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Yes but more lines is more coverage. Most Mainland Chinese cities are not arranged out like Hong Kong and will need a few more lines to fill in the gaps. Also they they don't need 80,000-95,000 ppl/hr/direction capacity like Hong Kong as their cities are not as dense.

Moscow's urban spatial arrangement seems to be the cause of of that phenomenon. In the morning, everyone flows into the city from bedroom commieblock complexes to the city center then they flow back out into the periphery in the evening.

Chinese Cities are more decentralized with Multiple CBDs and more mixed urban land use so they don't have as much people flowing in one direction. Which means less capacity is needed as both direction is a little more effectively utilized.

Its also worth noting 90% of all lines are not running at max design capacity. Because of the national subway train shortage most subway lines in china apart from SHM Lines 6 and 8 and half the beijing subway lines have plenty of track capacity. Operators could add more trains into the lines, they just don't have any. Most lines in china are running at 4-3 min headways in rush hour or even more. Should the train shortage issue be removed most Chinese lines will have a 50% increase in capacity.

Yes but at the end of the day economic factors trump all other considerations. Also didn't you just say that longer trains is cheaper than building more lines? Yet more lines will improve passenger comfort?
1. I'm not against more lines to build, I just say that every line can be of a much higher capacity. Shanghai is actually as dense as HK in its core, but much much larger.

2. You are a bit wrong with Moscow. Yes, we have a historical center, but not all the passengers go there. I can see in the morning loads of people crossing it and traveling to the other side of the city. Moscow, actually, doesn't have a CBD yet.

3. As for headways, 100% agree. But then, if you get them shorter, doesn't that mean more costs? And then, each train requires a driver. More trains = more drivers = more salaries to pay, not talking about power consumption, too.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
1. I'm not against more lines to build, I just say that every line can be of a much higher capacity. Shanghai is actually as dense as HK in its core, but much much larger.
HK's central "urban" districts are denser than Shanghai's "downtown" in the core. Pop/area works only when both areas are mostly occupied by an urban development. If you have honking parks and mountains all over one then the stat is skewed like Hong Kong. A better comparison is Kowloon Districts (mostly urban areas) clocking at 43,033 ppl/km^2 as opposed to Shanghai "central" urban districts which is "only" reaches 24,137 ppl/km^2 with not a single district over 35,000 ppl/km^2.

Yet Hong Kong manages fine with 80,000 to 95,000 ppl/hr/direction on its subway lines. If Shanghai subways operated with 2 mins every train 6 car A lines will have 55,800 ppl/hour/direction and 8 car A lines will have 74,400 ppl/hour/direction.

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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
2. You are a bit wrong with Moscow. Yes, we have a historical center, but not all the passengers go there. I can see in the morning loads of people crossing it and traveling to the other side of the city. Moscow, actually, doesn't have a CBD yet.
Yes but relative to Chinese cities Moscow is much more centralized. The closest and most centralized example in China is Beijing and everyone blasting Beijing for its concentric city style regional planning. In most Chinese cities have a general "historic downtown" area packed with a mish-mash of CBDs and dense housing in between. High tech parks, new town CBDs and Development Zones provide significant employment nodes in the suburbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
3. As for headways, 100% agree. But then, if you get them shorter, doesn't that mean more costs? And then, each train requires a driver. More trains = more drivers = more salaries to pay, not talking about power consumption, too.
Doesn't matter you already sunk in the overhead costs of building the subway so mind as well use it to capacity. Also its not about absolute costs its more like costs/revenue per train. one can say More trains = more passengers = more revenue to gain.

Last edited by saiho; December 5th, 2013 at 10:10 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 05:00 AM   #570
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Hong Kong is not a proper model for subway construction in mainland China. Hong Kong is a very centralized city and the urban zone occupies a very small percentage of the territory. Mainland cities are far more spacious and spread out so they need more lines that run at less frequent intervals.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 07:58 AM   #571
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Hong Kong is not a proper model for subway construction in mainland China. Hong Kong is a very centralized city and the urban zone occupies a very small percentage of the territory. Mainland cities are far more spacious and spread out so they need more lines that run at less frequent intervals.
In other words lower capacity lines with a bigger network
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Old December 6th, 2013, 12:50 PM   #572
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Any idea why we aren't seeing fully automated lines built at the moment? Cheap driver wages, lack of ATO expertise or just aren't in fashion? I know Paris is pushing ahead atm due to workers continuously demanding higher pay/striking
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Old December 6th, 2013, 06:47 PM   #573
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If you have a country of 1.3 billion, having them employed is actually a top priority.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 03:58 PM   #574
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yeah, there are like 3 people checking the security. one watching the screen, one persuading, and one just watching
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Old December 7th, 2013, 04:14 PM   #575
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you forgot the two playing Angry Birds on their phones. Seriously, if you want high employment why don't you ban cars and then people can work pulling carts. ATO would employ software, electronic engineers, etc in the design, construction and maintenance. And a product that could be exported.

Any particular reason we aren't seeing ATO in China?
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Old December 7th, 2013, 07:36 PM   #576
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Too many passengers. Too few lines and stations so far in each city.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 09:39 PM   #577
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you forgot the two playing Angry Birds on their phones. Seriously, if you want high employment why don't you ban cars and then people can work pulling carts. ATO would employ software, electronic engineers, etc in the design, construction and maintenance. And a product that could be exported.

Any particular reason we aren't seeing ATO in China?
ATO is great tech but its not like every new metro line in the world is built with full driverless ATO. In fact a minority share of new metro lines U/C are driverless. Risk, public perception and lower wages offset the benefits of going driverless. Driverless lines are usually used non-demanding and simple lines. If you ever ridden the subway in China, its like a carnival, so many things happen that an ATO system could possibly not handle. I think risk is a big part of it. HK for example only fully automated its Disneyland shuttle. Which has shorter trains its trunk urban lines that are not fully automated even the new ones. Most fully automated metros I have seen seem to have smaller lower capacity cars. Which I think reflects most societies level of acceptable risk (people particularity are sensitive of the magnitude of people involved in a single incident).
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Old December 8th, 2013, 03:07 AM   #578
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Risk, public perception and lower wages offset the benefits of going driverless.
Since when did public perception matter in China? And why is lower wages (ie running cost) a bad thing?

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Driverless lines are usually used non-demanding and simple lines.
The Paris metro is going ATO, Londons Jubilee line, DLR are ATO, central tunnel for crossrail will be, Vancouver has an entire system, I think like 7 in NYC, London circle line and Paris line 1 are all ATO too. None of them are non-demanding simple line.

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If you ever ridden the subway in China, its like a carnival, so many things happen that an ATO system could possibly not handle.
Yup, ridden the subway in Beijing, Guangzhou, Shanghai and HK (tho HK isn't really China). Easily been on over 20 metro systems. Nothing ever happened on the train that the driver could fix. Where you have platform screen doors and staff on the platform there is very little risk. Anything a driver could see on a monitor in the front a train the computer could sense too - ie, someone trapped in a door. Platform screen doors should be mandatory on every subway for this reason.

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Most fully automated metros I have seen seem to have smaller lower capacity cars. Which I think reflects most societies level of acceptable risk (people particularity are sensitive of the magnitude of people involved in a single incident).
See above for examples of fully fledged ATO metros. As for accidents I lived in Daegu, Korea for a couple years - there was a fire on a train so the driver stopped, got everyone out, but the driver of the train on the other tracks panicked and ran, so the people were trapped and died of smoke inhalation. There is higher risk with people solely in charge.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 03:59 AM   #579
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you forgot the two playing Angry Birds on their phones. Seriously, if you want high employment why don't you ban cars and then people can work pulling carts. ATO would employ software, electronic engineers, etc in the design, construction and maintenance. And a product that could be exported.

Any particular reason we aren't seeing ATO in China?
I want that job.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 04:00 AM   #580
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APM is ATO.
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