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Old December 8th, 2013, 04:11 AM   #581
saiho
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Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
Since when did public perception matter in China? And why is lower wages (ie running cost) a bad thing?
It totally does. Lets not brand China as "RED DICTATORSHIP" in everything. Public option has become a huge force to be reckoned in certain issues of society within the past few years. Why do you think there has yet to be major advances in Maglev construction? Huge negative public perception in electromagnetic radiation.

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The Paris metro is going ATO, Londons Jubilee line, DLR are ATO, central tunnel for crossrail will be, Vancouver has an entire system, I think like 7 in NYC, London circle line and Paris line 1 are all ATO too. None of them are non-demanding simple line.
Most of the systems you have listed "elect to maintain a driver (train operator) to mitigate risks associated with failures or emergencies." Only Paris and Vancouver is "full ATO without drivers onboard" as you where looking for. ATO with a driver is different from ATO without from a public viewpoint. By getting a train attendant the cost benefits of ATO are reduced significantly. ATO tends to be on smaller trains to spread out risk. When shit hits the fan it can be a Chinese train with 1,500 to over 2,000 people on board or Vancouver train with 480 people on board.

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Nothing ever happened on the train that the driver could fix. Where you have platform screen doors and staff on the platform there is very little risk. Anything a driver could see on a monitor in the front a train the computer could sense too - ie, someone trapped in a door. Platform screen doors should be mandatory on every subway for this reason.
Yet in Shanghai people died from PSD mishaps. If that was a driverless train a nail and 6 feet of soil is on ATO's coffin in China. Chinese subways are going through huge amounts of abuse, even our ticket gates are overwhelmed.

It's not one person blocking the door its a crowd blocking the door. An fully driverless ATO system would be torn to pieces with demand like this:



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Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
Yup, ridden the subway in Beijing, Guangzhou, Shanghai and HK (tho HK isn't really China). Easily been on over 20 metro systems.
I don't think we are quite riding the same subways.

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As for accidents I lived in Daegu, Korea for a couple years - there was a fire on a train so the driver stopped, got everyone out, but the driver of the train on the other tracks panicked and ran, so the people were trapped and died of smoke inhalation. There is higher risk with people solely in charge.
Beijing Subway didn't respond to the Daegu subway fire by getting ATO. They responded by ripping out all stores in the stations, making their trains and stations fireproof and designing for faster evacuations. ATO doesn't solve everything, also the example is an isolated case of driver negligence.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 06:55 AM   #582
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Saiho has it right. In an ideal world, the wildly overcrowded lines in Guangzhou would have:

-more cars and longer platforms
-bigger bore cars and big bore platforms
-4 track system with local and express lines.

Unfortunately it's not an ideal world. One can always dream, but it's not fair to have a grandiose line serving one area of town, then neglecting other areas that are equally deserving of rapid transit.

The Guangzhou metro can be critized for expanding too slowly, but its planning makes sense. If the Guangzhou metro had found some BS excuse to stop new construction, the critics would have a salient point. Every incipient mass transit system has had periods of overcrowding/underuse. Incomplete systems have these issues.

The system is still being expanded. When these lines come into service, the present overcrowdedness should start to be alleviated. Many of the current subway users would switch from the present overcrowded lines to the parallel ones.

Hong Kong isn't a perfect comparison. Hong Kong's geography is very constricted, making it more like Manhattan than Guangzhou. Until very recently, Hong Kong's MTR had similarly godawful overcrowding. Changing from the Red to the Green line was an adventure. Then changing from the Green to the KCR suburban line was another adventure. This overcrowding was present well into the MTR's existence. The expansion of the East, West, and Airport suburban rails captured many riders. Interestingly, the 3 original MTR lines had a 3 tunnel system, one for each direction and a third contingency route. It's interesting to note that the MTR's planners chose to increase system capacity by building new lines and stations rather than going to the 4 track option.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 07:03 AM   #583
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The cost of the train conductor isn't a major issue on the subway cars. If each guy is carrying 1000+ passengers, the labor cost/productivity is minuscule. Think of all the minibuses with 12 passengers, or taxis with 1 or 2 riders?

A fully automated system can do repetitive tasks without fail, but a human operator can/should recognize any number of unanticipated scenarios and act appropriately.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 07:44 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by particlez View Post
The Guangzhou metro can be critized for expanding too slowly, but its planning makes sense. If the Guangzhou metro had found some BS excuse to stop new construction, the critics would have a salient point. Every incipient mass transit system has had periods of overcrowding/underuse. Incomplete systems have these issues.
Yes but the sticky point I have with Guangzhou is there refusal to build more elevated sections in sparsely populated areas to reduce cost, speed up construction and avoid the crappy soil it has to tunnel in. The northern part of Line 3 could have been elevated and opted for larger trains and passing tracks for express services with the saved money but they changed the plan part way. Same for phase 2 of Line 6.

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Hong Kong isn't a perfect comparison. Hong Kong's geography is very constricted, making it more like Manhattan than Guangzhou. Until very recently, Hong Kong's MTR had similarly godawful overcrowding. Changing from the Red to the Green line was an adventure. Then changing from the Green to the KCR suburban line was another adventure. This overcrowding was present well into the MTR's existence. The expansion of the East, West, and Airport suburban rails captured many riders. Interestingly, the 3 original MTR lines had a 3 tunnel system, one for each direction and a third contingency route. It's interesting to note that the MTR's planners chose to increase system capacity by building new lines and stations rather than going to the 4 track option.
Actually Guangzhou is more like Manhattan in terms of constraint. The North and Northeast are bounded by mountains and there is a lot of rivers going though it. Hong Kong is an extreme case I don't think there is any city of a comparable size that is like HK.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 08:02 AM   #585
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Yeah, the unnecessarily buried suburban tracks don't make sense to me. Someone at the tunneling company has been paying kickbacks?

I mentioned Hong Kong because the southern half of Kowloon and the Northern half of the island can be served by a minimal amount of lines. the very constricted East-West lines in Guangzhou can at least be joined by extra parallel lines later on.

If reliever lines continue to be built, the actual capacity of each line becomes less important. The core of Paris has high densities and small capacity trains, but it's still well served.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 05:21 PM   #586
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In the time, subuebs will be built up as dense as cores of the cities are now. Moreover, costs of running are lower for underground lines than for elevated.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 08:37 AM   #587
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I know many places where they now wish that 50-100 years ago they would have made the tracks underground right away, in stead of elevated. It is much cheaper to put them underground while the land is still undeveloped.
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Old December 20th, 2013, 06:13 AM   #588
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Just add more lines!!!!!!!!
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Old December 20th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #589
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I know many places where they now wish that 50-100 years ago they would have made the tracks underground right away, in stead of elevated. It is much cheaper to put them underground while the land is still undeveloped.
I know even more places where they now wish that 50-100 years ago they would have built more lines but they couldn't because of cost. It is much cheaper to build elevated regardless.
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Old December 21st, 2013, 06:12 PM   #590
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Just add more lines!!!!!!!!
Line 6 will open by the end of this month (most like on December 28)

Some line 6 pictures











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Old December 22nd, 2013, 04:15 AM   #591
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Dec 28th huh thats a funny date to start.......
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 08:40 AM   #592
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and there will be 167 km metro opening in 6 cities of China on December 28
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Old December 25th, 2013, 10:07 PM   #593
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Guangzhou metro line 6 will open to traffic expected to receive 700,000 passenger trips per day

Guangzhou metro Line 6 short term average daily passenger flow is expected to be 600,000-700,000 passengers per day. Which is insane for a newly opened medium capacity line. That's the ridership of the most important 30km long and 60 years old subway line in my city. Everyone is worried the line will be packed like no tommorrow. GZ metro telling people to avoid the using line especially during rush hour.

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Old December 25th, 2013, 11:20 PM   #594
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So they didnt open the line yet and ask ppl to avoid it already because of the crowd? That means they should build more metros in GZ!
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Old December 28th, 2013, 05:29 AM   #595
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So they didnt open the line yet and ask ppl to avoid it already because of the crowd? That means they should build more metros in GZ!
They are, but unfortunately any line in the next 7 years won't do anything to alleviate the pressure on Lines 1, 3 and 6. 3 and 6 were poorly planned from the beginning, and the future lines under construction are for connecting the outer parts of the city to the center. That'd be great if people would move out of the center and occupy those places, but it just isn't happening as there is nowhere interesting to shop and live in Guangzhou outside of the city center and Panyu. People are buying the houses in case a suburb neighborhood comes alive after the metro is built, but right now it is just drawings and concept art, those places are nearly unlivable.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 04:02 PM   #596
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They are foolishly continuing to have 6-car B-size trains with large intervals. That's the problem of almost all cities in China.
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Old December 31st, 2013, 05:51 PM   #597
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Official map (as of 12/28/2013)


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Old December 31st, 2013, 05:52 PM   #598
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Line 6 opening pictures





























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Old December 31st, 2013, 05:53 PM   #599
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more Line 6 opening pictures by dt0001



































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Old January 1st, 2014, 09:38 AM   #600
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What are the projected line openings for 2014? How long will the system be at the end of 2014?
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