20FC the POLL: the most controversial project in London - which side are you on?

[pmun]

Originally Posted by Splendidineogh

Ok, you can't get more rational than a cost-benefit analysis, so here goes...

Cost Benefit Analysis

Cost

a) The building is ugly (1)
b) The building will diminish the skyline and the area around it (1)
c) The opportunity cost of having something better there (1)

Benefit

a) It is a tall building that would be better than what is there right now (1)

Conclusion

Cost (3) > (1) Benefit

Cost out weighs benefit; the building should not be built.

Hardly rational - that's just a list of your opinions.

[london lad]

Regular as clockwork every 6 or so weeks this thread is revived by a I hate this tower comment that will last a page or two before another 6 week break. lol

[Nightjar]

It just occured to me that this poll was started by ibiza who, as far as I understand it, is a big fan of 20FS. I think this would explain why I'm uneasy with the poll options as they seem to be heavily loaded towards those who have more positive feelings about this building.

Personally I obviously have generally negative feelings about 20FS but feel it;

a) was better when it was taller.

b) would be good as a stand-alone building.

c) would be a great addition to somewhere like CW where it's shape could be an antidote to CW's general blandness (of course the appeal of a skygarden at CW would be less obvious).

d) (with it's current shape) is - possibly - too tall for it's location.

e) will no doubt have magnificent build quality.

f) has a skygarden - what's not to like about a skygarden!

My point is that the debate amongst (at least some) '20FS haters' is more nuanced than it's fans would have you believe.

It would have been nice if there had been an option like; I have grave misgivings about the design but admire some aspects of it - etc...

I voted for the last option because it was the only one that was at all close to my true opinion but it was a disatisfactory choice.

[DarJoLe]

I think you should let it go to be honest.

[querido]

She should be overlooking a large park, the river or something.

So I'm from the "location is completely wrong for it" camp.

And we've gained the least number of votes.

[gegloma01]

It is a serious concern when a majority of skyscrapers fans (50.37%) votes "don't build it".

[beleevme]

Originally Posted by Nightjar

It just occured to me that this poll was started by ibiza who, as far as I understand it, is a big fan of 20FS. I think this would explain why I'm uneasy with the poll options as they seem to be heavily loaded towards those who have more positive feelings about this building.

Personally I obviously have generally negative feelings about 20FS but feel it;

a) was better when it was taller.

b) would be good as a stand-alone building.

c) would be a great addition to somewhere like CW where it's shape could be an antidote to CW's general blandness (of course the appeal of a skygarden at CW would be less obvious).

d) (with it's current shape) is - possibly - too tall for it's location.

e) will no doubt have magnificent build quality.

f) has a skygarden - what's not to like about a skygarden!

Great logic in fact, and i agree with all but one point as it is sort of a stand alone. I mean Plantation Place isnt massively effective towards it and its quite far away from the main cluster when viewed.

[Yorkshire Boy]

Originally Posted by DarJoLe

I think you should let it go to be honest.

Sorry, but i thought that this was what this thread was for...

[ibiza]

Originally Posted by Nightjar

It just occured to me that this poll was started by ibiza who, as far as I understand it, is a big fan of 20FS. I think this would explain why I'm uneasy with the poll options as they seem to be heavily loaded towards those who have more positive feelings about this building.

I never said I'm a big fan, quite in the contrary, I just don't hate it - I actually voted for option 2 if you are interested. And I think that my offered options - 1+4 for the extreme positives and negatives, 2+3 for the more neutral views on the design but focused on the top positive and negative "side aspect" mentioned on the 20FC thread until that point - are as balanced as they can be. So I really don't see were this "heavily loaded towards" should be coming from..

I agree (and said so at the start of this thread) that more poll options could help to get a more refined picture (so feel free to start another poll) but then you easily end up with more than 10 options if you want to include all the positive (which you tend to miss out on) and negative aspects possible, even more so if you want to allow for combinations between those if you don't want to go for multiple choice. I tried to focus on the main points to get a better idea how those are really in their importance for this project as that way people are forced to think about what counts most for them from those alternatives instead of ticking all the boxes as they would with multiple choice as almost everybody agrees on basic issues like that the location is not ideal or that the skygarden is a nice plus. I guess that the more detailed discussion of all aspects of this is anyways better done in the message part of this poll, that's the advantage of having a forum and not just a poll center on here..

[Nightjar]

Oh, apologies ibiza. I'm getting my wires crossed (again).

I do appreciate you starting this thread incidentally I just had a nagging feeling that my feelings about 20FS were so genuinely ambivalent I had to try and get it straight in my head and wondered what others felt.

I don't want to get into any spiteful exchanges about 20FS anymore (life's too short) and I'm honestly interested in what it is that fans of this building see in it.

Incidentally DarJole are you saying that this thread should be for voting alone then?

Since I realise that the main (closed) thread in the Summary of Projects was mainly for updates and images (which lead many to become pissed off with "whingers" opposed to the project banging on) should there be a 3rd thread - for debate alone?

[If You Insist]

Originally Posted by Nightjar

c) would be a great addition to somewhere like CW where it's shape could be an antidote to CW's general blandness (of course the appeal of a skygarden at CW would be less obvious).
.

This.

Planting 20FC along the side Millwall dock somewhere would be genius IMO. The sky garden would have a view of CW, Woodwharf, the Dome, Greenwich, the evolution of the IoDs as it happens, and for the next decade at least..the Shard and The City on the horizon. Imagine the kind of NYE parties they could hold their with the best views in London of the Dome firing fireworks or lightworks from the big 3 around Canada Sq? In the City its simply too busty to be taken seriously but has such a hugh profile that it detracts from the eloquence of everything else. The views from the sky garden would be less panoramic versions of the ones from the Pinnicle or the Shard with a lil bit of greenary thrown in.

[ibiza]

Originally Posted by Nightjar

Incidentally DarJole are you saying that this thread should be for voting alone then?

Since I realise that the main (closed) thread in the Summary of Projects was mainly for updates and images (which lead many to become pissed off with "whingers" opposed to the project banging on) should there be a 3rd thread - for debate alone?

I think DarJole didn't really mean that, he was probably so sure of what you would say (after your frequent rants against 20FC) that he didn't even bother to properly read anymore (have to admit almost made the same mistake) what you wrote up there. Otherwise I don't think he would have reacted the way he did as actually your message was a rather surprisingly (for a 20FC hater) balanced discussion of 20FC!

Actually I think option 3 would have been your perfect choice. Half of the arguments (b-d) in your discussion point towards the location being the main problem with 20FC as it is whereas the design would have been at least acceptable (or ok as I called it, to find the design on it's own ok surely still does allow to have some misgivings about it) in another location (eg. as a standalone or in CW) as you mention several times, actually you even call it good/great for that case! And unlike myself you have a big enough location problem with 20FC that the skygarden cannot make up for it to want to have it built. So that's exactly what I meant with option 3...

[ibiza]

Originally Posted by querido

She should be overlooking a large park, the river or something.

So I'm from the "location is completely wrong for it" camp.

And we've gained the least number of votes.

She is actually overlooking the river. There's only a few hundred meters to the Thames from it. But I agree that to have it directly next to the river and on another part of it (or even the other side of it might have been enough) instead of directly in front of the main city cluster would have been far better..

I'm actually surprised as well your vote option is among the smallest number of votes, but I wonder if it's because people prefer to go for extreme options (it's more fun on the first look) instead of the more thoughtintense (one actually has to make the efffort of imagining it somewhere else than next to the city cluster) location option or if it's true that the location is really not so much of an issue as the numbers suggest..

[Nightjar]

Before it sounds like I'm going 'all soft' on 20FS, abandoning my fellow 'haters' and going over to the darkside I have to say I still hate it - of course I think the location is wrong but in all truth I really only think I dislike the design because they shortened it (or were forced to).

The real tragedy is that - in terms of sheer aesthetics - it was, originally, a genuinely striking thing but now due to the 'improvements' it looks like a fat tramp stumbling into the Thames.

Although it isn't quite so bad the same could be said for 1BR (in it's original form I would have put that up there with The Shard and Bishopsgate).

EH & Co. don't just shoot themselves in the foot, they collectively shoot the rest of us too!

[suede685]

Option 1 for me!

My reasoning is already in the official thread!

[suede685]

Actually thats a cop out!

I just think its a distinctive and ballsy design and as long as its built well with some quality cladding it will be a great addition to the skyline!

People have also mentioned the Sky Garden which I think will be an amazing meeting place in the heart of London!

Also if when built people still think its an eyesore they will hopefully invest and smother it up with a cluster around it, win win really!

[Bowater]

There has been so many projects that alot of members expected to be attrocious and in the event turned out to be stunning. There are a couple of exceptions, Plantation Place and The Gateway but could it not be that this is another? Even if your initial expectations are negative.

[Nightjar]

I think it's a given that 20FS' build quality will be of high quality. This however is no guarantee that it will look good from a distance. As - I think DarJole - states on the Heron thread, Plantation Place close up has outstanding quality cladding but looks lousy from when seen from afar.

P.s. suede685, the skygarden may be an "amazing meeting place" but I wonder quite how accessable to the public it would be?

[suede685]

Originally Posted by Nightjar

P.s. suede685, the skygarden may be an "amazing meeting place" but I wonder quite how accessable to the public it would be?

Fair point, I thought it was gonna be full public access but I suppose that may depend on future tenants?

[ibiza]

Originally Posted by suede685

Fair point, I thought it was gonna be full public access but I suppose that may depend on future tenants?

nope, that was an essential part of the planning application (and public access to the top is something that definitely helped them to get permission) so they cannot just take out the public accessibility