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Old July 6th, 2009, 07:15 AM   #61
Leadingtraveler
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Dubai boy, just because you refuse to accept the truth doesn't make it false. But that is a trait common throughout Arab society; if your society doesn't think it is correct, then it must be wrong; if your society doesn't think it's true, it must be false. All you are capable of doing is pointing the finger at Israel and blaming them for all your societal ills. The Palestinians are the ones who target innocent civilians and have for their entire history; they already have their own state, Jordan, where they make up over 60% of the population. Perhaps you should turn off Al Jazeera and learn something.
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Old July 6th, 2009, 07:19 AM   #62
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Ukraine, take a look at your own godforsaken nation. Your population descends from those who betrayed their neighbors and friends, who assisted the Nazis and collaborated with them to persecute and murder Jews, Gypsies, and other "undesirables." Your country is soaked in the blood of innocent human beings, murdered by a people who would execute innocent children for the sake of independence offered by Adolf Hitler. My responses are aimed at debasing at the comments of other members, who only blame the Israelis and Jews and seek to paint the Palestinians as victims.
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Old July 6th, 2009, 09:46 AM   #63
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Your on crack leading your Embarassing yourself .... you singled out Arab society and label all of us like that ? why do i always get the crack heads in discussions

anyway , now im sure after anyone reads your post #61 they will know to avoid you what a joke you are.
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Old July 6th, 2009, 05:51 PM   #64
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Dubai boy, acting like you are "superior" doesn't hide the fact that you are unable to refute anything I state. You believe that by labeling the truth "nonsense" everyone will follow your lead. Reasonably-minded people would look at the truth themselves, and they would see that the facts defend Israel and it's policy of maintaining a wall that has put an end to over 90% of terrorist attacks.
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Old July 6th, 2009, 06:15 PM   #65
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honestly i don't get why is this in the "Architecture" section
There's more architecture in my backyard fence than in this.
not to mention everything it stands for
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Old July 6th, 2009, 10:39 PM   #66
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leading no im not acting superior here, but you know what they say , when your up againts a blind drunk , whats the point of debating or discussing anything ?

you just labeled a whole people , over 450 million infact and you expect people to take you seriously ? No not in your wildest dream , dream on kid.

What prevents Egypt for example from taking over or boming the shit out of Libya ? a wall ? Nope .... agreements , trade , mutual interest , business ....etc if egypt decided to attack libya , would a stupid 8 meter block of concrete get in their way ? i doubt it

you can go on and try and convince your bean like brain into thinking that that wall is the solution your really mistaken and something tells me you already know it.
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Old July 18th, 2009, 09:16 AM   #67
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This design will probably not work.. but could be inspiration for new ideas on solving the conflict!



It's like this giant bridge that you can live and farm in.

Also, here's a link of lebbeus woods (my second favourite architect) blogging about the Israelli wall. He also did some excellent designs for it too, but I don't remember which blog entry it was.

http://lebbeuswoods.wordpress.com/20...ivided-cities/

BTW my number one favourite architect is Peter Zumthor. His designs are more of an experience of the senses rather than the usual eye candy you find most starchitects doing. He also designed a building for a blind person! How awesome is that!!
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Old July 18th, 2009, 09:21 AM   #68
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I'm all for stopping suicide bombers, but that is not the only function of the wall.

The reason why the wall is sinister is the architect deliberately build the wall so that it makes life nearly impossible for the Palestinians, for example designing the wall so it seperates a farmer's farmland from his home on purpose.

For example, your city is going to build a concrete museum, it can be built anywhere, but the city mayor don't like you so the big concrete museum is going right in front of your front door of your home and you can't even move your car out of the garage. This, combined with the phychological effects that the giant wall gives, is used to force Palestinians out of their homes and to move elsewhere.

It also cuts into the town where Jesus Christ is born in.

Also, a group including some of Britain's most prominent architects is considering calling for an economic boycott of Israel's construction industry in protest at the building of Israeli settlements and the separation barrier in the Occupied Territories.


Overall, I think it is a perfect example of how architecture interacts with society, and how architecture can even greatly change society.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lino View Post
It's a shame that they built it... a real shame, especially after the Berlin wall fell... I hope this one is tore down too...
Actually, I disagree with you.

This wall is has an absolutely enormous amount of concrete, and concrete is really hard to dispose of. Doing so would create environmental problems. It would be best to think of alternative solutions first.

Last edited by Action; July 18th, 2009 at 10:25 AM.
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Old July 19th, 2009, 07:35 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadingtraveler View Post
Ukraine, take a look at your own godforsaken nation. Your population descends from those who betrayed their neighbors and friends, who assisted the Nazis and collaborated with them to persecute and murder Jews, Gypsies, and other "undesirables." Your country is soaked in the blood of innocent human beings, murdered by a people who would execute innocent children for the sake of independence offered by Adolf Hitler. My responses are aimed at debasing at the comments of other members, who only blame the Israelis and Jews and seek to paint the Palestinians as victims.
I have never blamed the jews or any race!!!I blamed the governements that dont act for the population best interest.Imnot trying to insult you!!! Israel wouldnt need a wall if they would make peace with every country theyre at war. Seperating nations is what makes war,hate ....Do you understand that imnot blaming society, im blaming a governement that is unable to make peace treaties,understand its people and try to make the world better, but yet Israelis have to pay endless taxes to the government just to see a war in front of their T.V. This wall is a shame for everyone.
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Last edited by Ukraine; July 19th, 2009 at 11:50 PM.
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Old July 19th, 2009, 07:58 PM   #70
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The wall is a blatant expression of colonialism in the West Bank. If the wall was merely meant to protect the people of Israel, the wall should have been built on the 1967 borders. However, the wall cuts deep into what is internationally recognized as occupied Palestinian land, ergo, this is an illegal land grab, pure and simple. The settler colonies in the West Bank are illegal and most Israeli's do not support their continued existence. What Israel is trying to do in the region is to 'change the facts on the ground' so that any return to the 1967 borders becomes increasingly impossible. Although, it seems Israel is fighting a losing battle, unless it totally gets rid of Arabs, within the next 20 years or so, the 'Jewish state' will be majority non-Jewish.
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Old July 19th, 2009, 08:38 PM   #71
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This wall is all that is wrong with this world, illegal, immoral, and a sign of oppression.

In the future we will all look back in disgust at what this country is doing to the world.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 03:56 PM   #72
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so true
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Old July 20th, 2009, 03:57 PM   #73
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the wall is totally justified. in the future the world will see that it was the right decision to build this giant wall. so: right choice israeli people!
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Old July 21st, 2009, 12:35 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javi itzhak View Post
do you know how many times i heard that before and mostly from europeans ? you didn't answer to my argument, just change the topic with the same cheap propaganda.

It's boring to discuss with people that love to hate Israel and only see one side of the conflict presenting the palestinians as victims of occupation, gimme a break, and this surrounding middle eastern countries want to focus only in Israel just to make people forget for a while their third world country problems. Suddenly Israel is the guilty of all of their miseries.
This thread was never meant to be derailed or against Israel, so I apologize that it got this way, though I have little control of how the thread evolves.

What are your thoughts on the wall itself?

If a structure is needed to prevent suicide bombers, it can be designed in a peaceful fashion; like borders between friendly countries.

It should rely more on "invincible" barriers like security camaras rather than physical barriers, in order to minimize psychological effects. It should not cut through so many roads; there should be more connections. It should also have minimal disruption on the daily lives of people, and should stay at the "border zone"; not cut a few kilometers into foreign land. It should not cause people to lose jobs, have difficulty going to the hospital at times of emergency, or children to have difficulty going to school. It should also respect the rights of the people by isolating their houses from their farmland.

There should be parks.

There could be a structure of peace on the site, like the Peace Arch built on the Canada/US border.

image hosted on flickr

The writings on the Peace Arch says "may this gate never close".

If I'm the architect, that's how I would design it. But first I would explore if the entire premise of this segregation is a good solution at all; there are other methods to be explored as well.



The Israelli Wall will negatively impact the citizens of Israel.

It is like a form of censorship; by preventing people from seeing the other side, it invites the citizens to ignore the politics.

The wall will also make the conflict worse, by giving those negatively affected by the wall lasting resentment.

It is not pleasant to look at for the people living nearby. It does not help the image of Israel; as you may have experienced. Also, it's bad for the environment but that's more something that I'm personally concerned about.

It also prevents interactions between those who are divided by the wall. I have friends of different cultures and religions, and I find that they make my life richer by offering new perspectives on things.

I would love to here your reply to this.

Last edited by Action; July 21st, 2009 at 12:44 AM.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 01:30 AM   #75
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Comparing this wall to the Berlin wall is stupid.
Why?
Because the Berlin wall separated Germany into two parts. It separated the German people.
This wall separates the Israelis from the Palestinians- acting as a border fence/whatever. If the Palestinians want an independent state- they should accept a border. If Israel builds a border between itself and that new Palestinian state- why do the Palestinians care? It's a natural thing- like Mexico doesn't say anything when the USA build a wall in order to prevent illegal immigration.
Israel built this wall in order to stop th suicide bombers who crossed the border (when there wasn't any wall there), went inside Israeli towns and suicided inside the civilian population in places like malls, restaurants and bus stations- killing over 1,000 Israelis in around 5 years (that's like 50,000 Americans since Israel's population is around 1/50 than the United state's population).
And indeed- the suicide bombings have almost completely stopped since the wall was build.
The only difference for the average Palestinian is that now, he/she has to go through a security check before he/she gets into Israel in order to work. It does take some time and it isn't very pleasant- but many other countries do the same thing, like Singapore for example.
And obviously, such a wall isn't looking very good- especially when it's built in haste and in order to save as much money as possible- a thing which Israel lacks anyway (that what happens when you have to waste around 20% of your state's budget on security...).
If you have any better solution in order to keep suicide bombers from Israeli territory- say it. You probably don't have any other solution and that's why the best solution is a 7 meters concrete wall. And by the way- most of this "wall" is just an ordinary fence. This huge concrete wall was build just near Israeli population centers and near Israeli roads in order to prevent Palestinian snipers from sniping Israelis inside Israeli territory from Palestinian houses close the the boarder.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 04:49 AM   #76
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If Israel builds a border between itself and that new Palestinian state- why do the Palestinians care?

Bc thats not what Israel is doing, read my post in the thread.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 09:20 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
If Israel builds a border between itself and that new Palestinian state- why do the Palestinians care?

Bc thats not what Israel is doing, read my post in the thread.
This land was either bought by Israelis who built their homes on it
or it didn't belong to anyone and nobody could find its owners.
What did you expect Israel to do? To evacuate around 500,000 Israelis (around 7% of Israel's population) from their homes or to build the wall so their homes were inside the Palestinian territory which would leave them vulnerable to suicide attacks?
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Old July 21st, 2009, 11:15 PM   #78
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1. philistines are no more, the philistines are the true native and ancient people of this region (and the jews right after the philistines). other than that the anicient language of this region was basically aramaic and never arabic.

2. palestinia is a region, so if you like - israelis are also "palestinians"

3. "your" beloved palestinians are most of all and genetically pure arabs, and arabs doesn't belong to this region... not in the early history, but jews do.

4. arabic/islamic culture in this region is a funny byproduct of those mega peaceful medieval muslim conquests.

5. there is an active islamist "wipe all jews out -roadmap" ,kinda second islam-style diaspora, so the wall makes more than just sense to me... but although useless against those fanatic islamists, they know how to dig holes below ground level.

altogether, it wasn't built without any reason or just for fun.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 12:26 AM   #79
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This land was either bought by Israelis who built their homes on it or it didn't belong to anyone and nobody could find its owners.

That's a load, much of the land was occupied and the local inhabitants who were dispossessed by the settlers with support from the Israeli military. Secondly, even if the land were barren, it is still illegal colonialization. You can buy all the land you want, it does not negate the fact that actual transaction is illegal.

What did you expect Israel to do?

To not create the problem in the first place, follow international law and not build settlements in land that is internationally recognized as Palestinian land. Ergo, respect the 1967 borders. Of course Israel created this problem by encouraging the settlements to 'change the facts on the ground' making it impossible or next to impossible to create a viable Palestinian state and engage in a land grab.

I do not have a problem with the wall, as long as the wall was built along the 1967 border. Israel, on its own territory could have built that wall and still prevented the attacks from the suicide bombers. The wall, if anything, proves the weakness of Israel not its strength. The problem I have with the wall is its illegality.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 12:37 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
This land was either bought by Israelis who built their homes on it or it didn't belong to anyone and nobody could find its owners.

That's a load, much of the land was occupied and the local inhabitants who were dispossessed by the settlers with support from the Israeli military. Secondly, even if the land were barren, it is still illegal colonialization. You can buy all the land you want, it does not negate the fact that actual transaction is illegal.

What did you expect Israel to do?

To not create the problem in the first place, follow international law and not build settlements in land that is internationally recognized as Palestinian land. Ergo, respect the 1967 borders. Of course Israel created this problem by encouraging the settlements to 'change the facts on the ground' making it impossible or next to impossible to create a viable Palestinian state and engage in a land grab.

I do not have a problem with the wall, as long as the wall was built along the 1967 border. Israel, on its own territory could have built that wall and still prevented the attacks from the suicide bombers. The wall, if anything, proves the weakness of Israel not its strength. The problem I have with the wall is its illegality.
According to the 1967 borders- this land belongs to Jordan. Jordan gave up on this land on the peace agreements with Israel in the 1990's, therefore, this lands belongs to... no one and therefore, it can't be occupied because you can occupy a land only from another state. If there has never been a Palestinian state- then Israel has never occupied anything.
What happens if some1 discovers a new island and no government claims that it belongs to it? It's his island!
If Israel sees an empty piece of land which doesn't belong to anyone- it belongs to Israel. If this land belongs to someone- Israel (and any other nation) can buy this land from him.
Claiming that Israel occupies the West Bank is like claiming that the USA occupies the Indian lands in North America. The situation in the US is even worse because people actually lived on most of these lands and US settlers just killed most of them and took the lands to themselves, unlike the situation in the West Bank where over 99% of the land which is now owned by Israel has been bought by Israel or has never belonged to anyone. That friction of a percent is illegally colonized by Israeli settlers and indeed, Israel will evacuate these lands in 1-2 years (1,500 Israelis live there of around 500,000 Israeli-Jews who live in the West Bank+around 200,000 Arabs with Israeli citizenship who live there).
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