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Old July 22nd, 2009, 01:39 AM   #81
Nico_Uru
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According to the 1967 borders- this land belongs to Jordan. Jordan gave up on this land on the peace agreements with Israel in the 1990's, therefore, this lands belongs to... no one and therefore, it can't be occupied because you can occupy a land only from another state. If there has never been a Palestinian state- then Israel has never occupied anything.

The land is not Israel's land, it is declared illegally occupied land by the UN resolution 242 which clearly states:

Quote:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
That conflict being the pre-emptive 1967 Six-day war. Even assuming the land belongs to no one--Israel's recognition that a future Palestinian state will exist in Gaza and the West Bank denotes that Israel recognizes that the land is Palestinian land--Israeli settlement activity is still illegal, and so is occupation of the land. Why do you think every US president wants Israel to stop settlement activity?

If Israel sees an empty piece of land which doesn't belong to anyone- it belongs to Israel. If this land belongs to someone- Israel (and any other nation) can buy this land from him.

I've heard this a lot from defenders of Israel, the fact is that the land was occupied, millions of Palestinians lived in the region before and after 1967. To suggest that they weren't there is racist at best. The land does belong to the Palestinians, they were granted a state in 1948 and in 1994 Israel recognized that Palestinians do have a right to a state in the West Bank and Gaza:

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he main premise of the Oslo Accords was the eventual creation of Palestinian autonomy in some of the territories captured during the Six-Day War, in return for Palestinian recognition of Israel. This premise is reminiscent of the "land for peace" principle.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...d_for_peace.22

Ergo, undermining your entire argument.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 04:39 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
The land is not Israel's land, it is declared illegally occupied land by the UN resolution 242 which clearly states:



That conflict being the pre-emptive 1967 Six-day war. Even assuming the land belongs to no one--Israel's recognition that a future Palestinian state will exist in Gaza and the West Bank denotes that Israel recognizes that the land is Palestinian land--Israeli settlement activity is still illegal, and so is occupation of the land. Why do you think every US president wants Israel to stop settlement activity?

I've heard this a lot from defenders of Israel, the fact is that the land was occupied, millions of Palestinians lived in the region before and after 1967. To suggest that they weren't there is racist at best. The land does belong to the Palestinians, they were granted a state in 1948 and in 1994 Israel recognized that Palestinians do have a right to a state in the West Bank and Gaza:



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...d_for_peace.22

Ergo, undermining your entire argument.
Resolution 242 was made right after the 6 days way in 1967 while the peace agreement with Jordan was in the 1990s. Israel should have given the occupied territories to Jordan according to resolution 242 but Jordan declared that these territories didn't belong to it in the peace agreements with Israel and therefore- resolution 242 isn't valid.

Every US president wants Israel to stop building it's settlements because if he says something like "I don't care- this land belongs to Israel" the Arab states will do something about it and the oil price will skyrocket. Nobody wants that, right?

Yes, Palestinians lived (and still live) in these lands. However, they have never lived there as a part of a Palestinian state. Israeli settlements are on two kinds of land:
1. Land which didn't belong to any Palestinian (like a land in the middle of the desert or an isolated hill) so Israel took it to itself because it didn't belong to anyone anyway.
2. Land which was owned by Palestinians and was bought by Israel/Israeli citizens from the Palestinians.
Israel granted the Palestinians a state in 1948 as a part of a resolution by the UN which also granted Israel a state. However, the Palestinian didn't accept that resolution and immediately attacked Israel. 6,000 Israelis were killed in this conflict (around 1% of Israel's population which is equal to 3 million Americans), 750,000 Jews were exiled from the Arab states and 650,000 Palestinians left their homes as the Arab nations suggested. They wanted to return after the destruction of Israel (the Arab stated were sure that it would be destroyed) and after Israel had survived the war- they were stuck in Arab nations. The Palestinians who remained in their homes are now full Israeli citizens and have equal rights like in every democratic state. In 1994, Israel granted the Palestinians a state as a part of the Oslo agreements, which were infringed by the Palestinians in 2000 when the started the "second intifada" and killed around 1,000 Israelis.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 06:08 PM   #83
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An expression of racism? How about the radical Palestinian terrorists who go across the border seeking to detonate themselves amongst innocent children and women? That's racism. That's the radical ideology hammered into the heads of Palestinian children from the moment they are born by the racist media in the Palestinian territories. That wall is a godsend. Why should Palestinians be able to use facilities in Israel if they want their own state? Perhaps they should request some aid from their leaders, who stash billions of financial aid dollars in their Swiss bank accounts instead of helping their own people live like normal human beings. Or perhaps they can ask their wealthy Arab neighbors to lend a hand. Enough of blaming Israel.
I was watching a documentary on the region and it was stated that the first " human bomb" was actually a jew.
And if we are going to talk about racism well if you look in the dictionary next to the word "RACIST" it says " SEE JEW "
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 07:29 PM   #84
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Resolution 242 was made right after the 6 days way in 1967 while the peace agreement with Jordan was in the 1990s. Israel should have given the occupied territories to Jordan according to resolution 242 but Jordan declared that these territories didn't belong to it in the peace agreements with Israel and therefore- resolution 242 isn't valid.

Yes under the assumption that the "deed" of the land transfered from the Jordanians to the Palestinians. Why do you ignore the other part of my post where I explicitly point that out? your point falls flat again. The land is claimed by the Palestinian Authority, which is internationally recognized as the representatives of Palestine. Palestine's int'l recognized borders are the 1967 borders. Ergo, Resolution 242 is still valid, and since the P.A. recognized Israel's existence, there was a land for peace deal that Israel has not lived up to by carving up Palestine. The occupation is illegal, the settlements are illegal. Indeed, the UN has recognized that the Israeli settlements are illegal in resolution 446:

Quote:
1. Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

3. Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind its previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and, in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories;


It could not be any clearer...Israel is rogue, illegal state with the most UN resolutions against it.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 07:51 PM   #85
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Nico Uru about giving back land..... by the same token Canada and Uruguay should give back their entire territories to the native americans. But where are you gonna live ?
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 09:14 PM   #86
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Nico Uru about giving back land..... by the same token Canada and Uruguay should give back their entire territories to the native americans. But where are you gonna live ?
There is a difference of course, at the time of the colonialization of the America's there was no international law that recognized that those acts were illegal; actually, quite the opposite, the theory of terris nullius legitimized those claims at the time. Therefore, you cannot retroactively put our laws and values onto the past. At the time of the creation of Israel, and certainly by 1967 colonialism went against the mores and laws of the international community; however, one could effectively argue that Israel's creation itself was a legally sanctioned act of colonialism, by definition actually. Israel was sanctioned against for its illegal actions in the 1967 war, as it should have been for breaking international law. Israel is a nation-state within the international system, therefore it should follow the laws that guarantee its existence as a state.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 02:54 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
Yes under the assumption that the "deed" of the land transfered from the Jordanians to the Palestinians. Why do you ignore the other part of my post where I explicitly point that out? your point falls flat again. The land is claimed by the Palestinian Authority, which is internationally recognized as the representatives of Palestine. Palestine's int'l recognized borders are the 1967 borders. Ergo, Resolution 242 is still valid, and since the P.A. recognized Israel's existence, there was a land for peace deal that Israel has not lived up to by carving up Palestine. The occupation is illegal, the settlements are illegal. Indeed, the UN has recognized that the Israeli settlements are illegal in resolution 446:

[/b]

It could not be any clearer...Israel is rogue, illegal state with the most UN resolutions against it.
The fact is that the PA does not recognize Israel's existence and therefore- you are not right. The PA recognize Israel's existence but NOT AS A JEWISH NATION. Israel is a "democratic and JEWISH state" and recognized by the UN as a Jewish nation. Therefore, if the PA does not recognize Israel as a Jewish nation- it doesn't recognize it at all and nobody can expect Israel to make peace with a country which doesn't recognize it's existence. Furthermore, the PA wants not only to evacuate 100% of the Jews who live in "its" territory (no, no, not racist at all)- but to settle over 3 million Palestinians inside Israel's own territory because according to the PA, it was "conquered" during the 1948 war. Not only that, the PA also wants Israel to evacuate the Jews who live inside it's own territory on "Palestinian lands" and replace them by those 3 million Palestinians (that's around 2.5 million Jews).
And for this, the PA will recognize Israel as a state (not as a Jewish state, so because it's Jewish the peace agreement isn't set at all) and stop the terror (which has already been stopped by Israel anyway).
Indeed, Israel can accept these conditions. Evacuating around 40% of It's population, adding 3 million hostile Palestinians to its population, having impossible-to-defend borders and finally- giving a state to people who support terrorism (52% of the Palestinians support terror, a recent survey says).
Indeed, a very smart thing to do.
Why?
Because the UN, which is controlled by very peaceful countries which support human right such as Sudan, Libya, Russia and the Arab states blame Israel for "crimes against humanity" while they themselves commit these crimes on a larger scale (slaughtering of hundreds of thousands in Sudan, slaughter which is supported by the peace-seeking Arab nations) and many other countries which have non-democratic regimes and obviously don't actually defend human rights, as long as it has nothing to do with the Palestinians of course, who are "conquered" by the Israel which is the largest nation on earth (yea, sure) and has killed million of Palestinians (around 7,000 during the last 10 years, most of them armed) unlike Sudan for example which has killed only 250,000 people in the last few years (most of them non-armed).
Now, after we have already viewed these facts (yes, facts, not my opinion- facts)- the hundreds UN resolutions against Israel make even more sense and because they make sense- Israel should do what the UN says.
Yea, sure.

Most of the Israelis (including myself)- HATE the UN. Why? Because when we see the representative of a country which has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people blames Israel for killing a single person- something here seems wrong. When we see that the the Palestinian refugees their own UN agency and all of the other refugees in the world have... one agency as well- something seems wrong. When we see that the normal refugee's children are not refugees according to the UN BUT the Palestinians children, grandchildren, grandchildren children (etc...) are refugees according to the UN- something seems wrong. When we see that over 750,000 Jews were forced to leave their homes and property (estimated in around 100 billion US $ and approx. 100,000 square kilometers of land) in the Arab nations from 1948 to 1952 and didn't get any money from the UN and 600,000 Palestinians who were in the same situation (fled by themselves but w/e) get billions of dollars every year- something here seems wrong. When we see the UN blames Israel for every little violation of its resolutions while the Hezbollah for example which should have been guarded by the UN itself violates these own resolutions on daily basis- something seems wrong.
So when a foreign citizen, who has probably never been to Israel and has never seen this conflict says "But the UN said so!!1!11!one!11!1"- don't expect someone to accept what the UN said. The common comment to your statement is probably "so...? why do you thing I care?" and maybe Ben Gurion's statement from from 1955 which shows disrespect to the stupidity of the UN, and obviously for a reason.
And when someone tells Israel "the
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 04:23 PM   #88
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^ excellent post, dark shadow - very well put.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 07:57 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by dark_shadow1 View Post
Because the UN, which is controlled by very peaceful countries which support human right such as Sudan, Libya, Russia and the Arab states blame Israel for "crimes against humanity" while they themselves commit these crimes on a larger scale (slaughtering of hundreds of thousands in Sudan, slaughter which is supported by the peace-seeking Arab nations) and many other countries which have non-democratic regimes and obviously don't actually defend human rights, as long as it has nothing to do with the Palestinians of course, who are "conquered" by the Israel which is the largest nation on earth (yea, sure) and has killed million of Palestinians (around 7,000 during the last 10 years, most of them armed) unlike Sudan for example which has killed only 250,000 people in the last few years (most of them non-armed).
Now, after we have already viewed these facts (yes, facts, not my opinion- facts)- the hundreds UN resolutions against Israel make even more sense and because they make sense- Israel should do what the UN says.
Yea, sure.

Most of the Israelis (including myself)- HATE the UN. Why? Because when we see the representative of a country which has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people blames Israel for killing a single person- something here seems wrong. When we see that the the Palestinian refugees their own UN agency and all of the other refugees in the world have... one agency as well- something seems wrong. When we see that the normal refugee's children are not refugees according to the UN BUT the Palestinians children, grandchildren, grandchildren children (etc...) are refugees according to the UN- something seems wrong. When we see that over 750,000 Jews were forced to leave their homes and property (estimated in around 100 billion US $ and approx. 100,000 square kilometers of land) in the Arab nations from 1948 to 1952 and didn't get any money from the UN and 600,000 Palestinians who were in the same situation (fled by themselves but w/e) get billions of dollars every year- something here seems wrong. When we see the UN blames Israel for every little violation of its resolutions while the Hezbollah for example which should have been guarded by the UN itself violates these own resolutions on daily basis- something seems wrong.

+1, You are so RIGHT ! Finally someone to say the truth about the UN. You perfectly expressed what I think about this stupid organization filled with hypocrites and criminal politicians from the worst regimes in the world.
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Old July 24th, 2009, 03:36 AM   #90
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The fact is that the PA does not recognize Israel's existence and therefore- you are not right.

Uh-huh, thats why the Israeli government negotiated with them? That's why in 2000 the Israeli state was seriously negotiating for give the PA a state of their own, albeit a Bantustan, nevertheless, a state. The premise of negotiations was that the PA would recognize Israel's right to exist in its 1967 borders so stop lying.

Furthermore, the PA wants not only to evacuate 100% of the Jews who live in "its" territory (no, no, not racist at all)- but to settle over 3 million Palestinians inside Israel's own territory because according to the PA, it was "conquered" during the 1948 war.

Firstly, you show me where the PA wants to "evacuate" anyone, Hamas ok, but the PA? Again you are a liar. Secondly, its called the right of return, the European Jewish population used that notion to colonize a land that they never touched or seen. Al Nakba was recognized as a crime against humanity and the UN (whether you like or not, it is the sole organization that determines what international law is) demands that those who were expelled from their homes and ancestral lands should be allowed to come back. The fictitious nature of the Israeli state is supported by the fact that if they did come back, then Israel would immediately cease being a "Jewish state". Ergo, the entire edifice of Israel is based on coercion, without that coercion the state would fall like a deck of cards.

Because the UN, which is controlled by very peaceful countries which support human right such as Sudan, Libya, Russia and the Arab states blame Israel for "crimes against humanity" while they themselves commit these crimes on a larger scale

Nice try, but all the resolutions I showed you were voted by the SC5 states, including the US, France and the UK you know Israel's closet allies. The general assembly is a mouthpiece. The UN supports genocide, show me where UN forces or the organization helped in the genocide of a people? Secondly, nice red berring but it does not absolve Israel of its own crimes. So if you WANT to talk to me, stay on topic, comprende?

Most of the Israelis (including myself)- HATE the UN. Why?

Because it rules against your illegal, imperialist expansion, nuclear armed state that destabilizes the entire region and engages in illegal colonialization of land that doesn't belong to you? Israel does not stand above the law, the REASON ISRAEL EXISTS is BECAUSE OF THE UN! I am sorry if Israel has a oedipus complex with the UN, but you will have to live with it.

When we see the UN blames Israel for every little violation of its resolutions while the Hezbollah for example which should have been guarded by the UN itself violates these own resolutions on daily basis- something seems wrong.

If this is how most Israeli's think, they are properly the most ignorant people on Earth. Thankfully, I do not you are representative of Israeli's and they know better than this. Hezbollah is a NON-STATE ACTOR, meaning that the UN cannot sanction something that it does not recognize as a legal state entity and visa versa. Apples and oranges look like the same fruit I am sure to you.

The common comment to your statement is probably "so...? why do you thing I care?"

You do care, why else the rant? Actions speak a lot louder than words.
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Old July 25th, 2009, 01:05 AM   #91
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-If Israel is occupying the West Bank, then it must withdraw.

-If, on the other hand, Israel is not occupying the West Bank, it means Israel considers the West Bank to be part of its territory. In that case, it must give the vote to the Palestinians.

But building in the West Bank while not granting civil rights to the native population is very bad behavior, otherwise known as wanting to have it both ways.
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Old July 25th, 2009, 01:54 AM   #92
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This wall is pure evil.

The American electorate is finally wiseing up and seeing Israel for what it is.

This wall like the Berlin wall will not last.

End this evil occupation NOW!!! The party is over... no more blank checks!!
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