Immigrant community in Ireland - Page 4

Hazeley · July 31st, 2009, 11:24 AM

To be fair the people weren't in Ireland, but were Irish immigrants in England. So I guess this doesn't reveal too much specifically about their feelings on migration into Ireland, but I don't think it'd be hard to guess.
Had only positive experiences travelling in the South (Dublin, Kilkenny, Clare, Galway...)

odlum833 · July 31st, 2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saoró...

Not being an immigrant, I cant offer a first hand opinion. However, living here, I can offer a more valid one than yours.

Im not sure which generation you belong to, or which part of Ireland you visited, as these are the factors with which attitude varies imho, but I find among my peers, both national and international, there are no racist opinions whatsoever. I find this is the case with anyone I meet who isnt a scumbag trying to be hard. In my daily life in Dublin, I cannot remember encountering one racist remark/incident. Obviously this does happen in Dublin, as with everywhere, but your opinion that it is a regular part of Irish life is simply wrong.

The attitudes of the older and more rural demographic are legacies from Ireland's backward "christian" past, this is the only context Ive ever wanted to punch someone in the face for a comment, but again is very rare in my experience.

Considering Ireland has had to put up and handle mass immigration in the last 10 years and at the pace it occured I am supprised that, so far, things seem cohesive enough. Whether that continues or not is another matter.

nordisk celt83 · July 31st, 2009, 09:05 PM

I have to agree with my fellow rep of ireland forumers that some of the comments on here are very ill-informed. I work as a language teacher in Dublin, and none of my students have ever said that have experienced racism.

There is no political party of any significance in Ireland that is anti-immigration, unlike in most other European countries. In fact, immigration is a complete non-issue and wouldn't even get a mention in political manifesto's, unlike in other European countries. There's one group headed by Aine Ni Choineall called the anti-immigration platform that ran two candidates in previous elections. One in Dublin Central and one in Dublin South-Central, both finished last! (probably out of a list of something like 15candidates.)

There have been no 'they took our jobs' marches in Ireland, like in other European countries, despite the fact our unemployment is predicted to reach 15%.

Basically, Ireland is doing pretty well for a country that has only recently experienced large-scale immigration. Of course racism does exist in Ireland, but I think the fact we have been the subject of horrendous discrimination and racism ourselves is hardly beyond us (in fact, on these forums it sometimes still appears to be alive and well), and means most wouldn't dare visit such an experience on our newly arrives neighbours.

Immigration is generally percieved as a positive thing for Ireland with dynamism and multi-culturalism the key to our future success as a nation.

nordisk celt83 · July 31st, 2009, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazeley

Had only positive experiences travelling in the South (Dublin, Kilkenny, Clare, Galway...)

You'll have to come back and visit West Cork, Kerry and Wicklow that's where it's really at.

nordisk celt83 · July 31st, 2009, 09:13 PM

I should acknowledge that attitudes towards the travelling community/gypsies is a whole different story!!!!!!

PB-1888 · August 1st, 2009, 03:55 AM

Although the sudden influx of immigration into the RoI over the last 10 years has been relatively painless, the question is will this remain so in the economic downturn. No one minds taking in foreigners when the place is booming, but the southpark-esque "they're taking our jobs" mind set may well set in as everyone starts scrambling for diminishing work opportunities and benefits.

As for the North being more extreme, I disagree. Human behaviour is the same no matter where in the world, and although, clearly some people in NI are racist, I think an element of the national media (whether Irish or British) like to portray NI as this hotbed of extremism so they can reassure themselves that they are not as bad as us. For example Esther Rantzen may have had a point in her criticisms of NI, but what about the trouble in Luton (where she is running for office) the week before during the parade for the returning soldiers?

I think people should remember the quote, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". I'll be the last person ever to say NI is the most peaceful, liberally enlightened and welcoming place there is, but before others criticise, get your own house in order.

belfastuniguy · August 2nd, 2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

I think people should remember the quote, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". I'll be the last person ever to say NI is the most peaceful, liberally enlightened and welcoming place there is, but before others criticise, get your own house in order.

Well said mate!!

Hazeley · August 3rd, 2009, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PB-1888

I think people should remember the quote, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". I'll be the last person ever to say NI is the most peaceful, liberally enlightened and welcoming place there is, but before others criticise, get your own house in order.

There's inevitable hypocrisy involved in commenting on others' shortcomings. As an Englishman there are naturally countless events, attitudes, people etc that make me feel shame as well as pride in where I'm from. I know it can be irritating to hear comments from outsiders who may or may not know what they're talking about. But that's half the point of a forum like this. Unfortunately NI's situation means it does face issues that other places do not.

belfastuniguy · August 5th, 2009, 11:38 PM

Can't have been too awful living here then.

Quote:

Romas return after city attacks

A Roma carries belongings
News of the attacks made headlines around the world

Some of the Romas who left Belfast in June following a series of racist attacks have returned to the city.

About 12 Roma men have already returned and their families are to follow, in time for their children to start the new school term, it is understood.

More than 100 immigrants returned to Romania after the attacks, which made headlines around the world.

Their airfares were paid for by the Housing Executive, but they have had no financial aid in returning to NI.

Director of An Munia Tober Travellers Centre, Derek Hanway, said he believed the men had already found work for when they return to the city.

"I'm not aware of any government funding - they're making their own way back here if that's what they want to do," he said.

"We're aware of the legal restrictions that many Roma have. They're not coming back for benefits or to sponge off society - they're not entitled to, even if they wanted to.

"They're coming back to work and they're entitled to do so as EU citizens."

Belfast's Lord Mayor Naomi Long said she hoped they would receive a warm welcome upon their return.

"I think it's hugely encouraging that after being able to go home and reassure their families about the situation here that they feel confident enough to be able to return to Belfast, pick up and build a new life for themselves that they had already started here," she said.

"Most importantly, good neighbours can be a part of that process of just making people feel valued and welcome."

odlum833 · August 6th, 2009, 12:08 AM

To say that is "interesting" would be an understatement considering they made NI look like the US deep south for a few weeks. Must be the welfare.

belfastuniguy · August 6th, 2009, 12:13 AM

They can't get welfare. It's against the law.

While the actual attack was horrendous, just goes to prove my point that Northern Ireland is not as bad as some people, including you Odlum wished to make out.

odlum833 · August 6th, 2009, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belfastuniguy

They can't get welfare. It's against the law.

While the actual attack was horrendous, just goes to prove my point that Northern Ireland is not as bad as some people, including you Odlum wished to make out.

I think you mean the media which was were most of my, and naturally, everyone elses perception is moulded. If you have a problem with perception then it is really the media you should blame.

SnailTrain · August 6th, 2009, 12:31 AM

There is a history of racism in the ROI that goes back many years, and the Irish are every bit as racist and intolerant when it suits them as any one else. This holier than thou crap of some folk here makes me puke. I have an English friend who is Malasian in decent, and she has experienced the full wrath of the anti-British brand of racism that always passes unchallenged.

Anyway, having said all that, what's this got to do with the issues of this site?

odlum833 · August 6th, 2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnailTrain

I have an English friend who is Malasian in decent, and she has experienced the full wrath of the anti-British brand of racism that always passes unchallenged.

Whilst undoubtedly their is an element of anti British feeling in some people I don't think it is as widespread a problem as it was maybe 20 years ago in terms of being openly abusive to someone on the street with a good english accent but even then it was not a major issue. Can that be called "rascism"? - I don't think your argument fits the definition tbh. I have not seen much open hostility to non British and British newcomers on the streets I have to say. In fact I don't think I personally ever have. But I know it certainly happens.

belfastuniguy · August 6th, 2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odlum833

I think you mean the media which was were most of my, and naturally, everyone elses perception is moulded. If you have a problem with perception then it is really the media you should blame.

Not really no....unless your entire logical thought process is derided from what the media states?

Generally if you have notion of the actual situation then it's usually best to leave the 'media view' to the side. Despite myself and some others actually detailing a different situation, others continued to rant on....can't say I'm overly surprised tbh.

odlum833 · August 6th, 2009, 12:52 AM

I have very good knowledge of Northern society and it's problems but the media reports I have to read because I don't actually live there. It seems people take issue with the fact that if sectarianism is rife for 2 centuries you can hardly expect that behaviour to disappear in certain areas when an influx of "even newer" people arrive to said community. That just does not make sense. IMO once taking that into account you are right - it is not as bad as it looks on the outside. But that does not mean that there is not and won't be issues in future.

Lostboy · August 6th, 2009, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odlum833

Whilst undoubtedly their is an element of anti British feeling in some people I don't think it is as widespread a problem as it was maybe 20 years ago in terms of being openly abusive to someone on the street with a good english accent but even then it was not a major issue. Can that be called "rascism"? - I don't think your argument fits the definition tbh. I have not seen much open hostility to non British and British newcomers on the streets I have to say. In fact I don't think I personally ever have. But I know it certainly happens.

I think it can be called racism.The twenty years ago comment is interesting, by 1989, I don't think an Irish accent would be enough for you to get abused in the street in in England. Certainly I know that the Irish have liked to call anti-Irish attitudes in other English Speaking countries akin to racism when it suited them, but given your Anglophobia it doesn't surprise me at all that when the boot is on the other foot you would hesitate to reverse it. Whether it is racism or not, I do not know I am ethnically Irish but would no doubt experience the same bigotry probably from people not to dissimilar to yourself, so splitting hairs over a word is irrelevant, as it is most certainly bigotry and prejudice, no more acceptable whatever form it comes in. That includes homophobia btw!

odlum833 · August 6th, 2009, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lostboy

I think it can be called racism.The twenty years ago comment is interesting, by 1989, I don't think an Irish accent would be enough for you to get abused in the street in in England. Certainly I know that the Irish have liked to call anti-Irish attitudes in other English Speaking countries akin to racism when it suited them, but given your Anglophobia it doesn't surprise me at all that when the boot is on the other foot you would hesitate to reverse it. Whether it is racism or not, I do not know I am ethnically Irish but would no doubt experience the same bigotry probably from people not to dissimilar to yourself, so splitting hairs over a word is irrelevant, as it is most certainly bigotry and prejudice, no more acceptable whatever form it comes in. That includes homophobia btw!

What!? Homophobia? What has that got to do with anything?

An Irish accent would have been very enough to get you abused in some, not all, parts of England in 1989 considering the stuff that was going on. And no it's not racism no matter which way it goes.

You seem to have a very blinkered view of Irish society in both parts of the Island if you don't mind me saying. Whilst Ireland has prejudices and problems I wonder just how bad it is compared to your part of the world? I think, as a whole, Ireland is a very open and tolerant country overall. Much more then many other EU countries.

pricemazda · August 6th, 2009, 01:17 PM

He never mentions the way English protestants were treated in Ireland. Listen to Graham Norton for example explain how people would make him feel like he wasn't properly Irish. or read the history how people were burnt out of their homes.

Cork had one of the highest concentrations of protestants in the ROI, not anymore - what happened to them?

odlum833 · August 6th, 2009, 02:01 PM

What do mean "English Protestants"? You are just as Irish here if you are a Protestant as if you are a Catholic. As for your accusation as to what was going on in Cork - out of context external comment as usual. There is a context to everything. Firstly the ramifications of the 1921 treaty in which the democratic wishes of this country, as a whole, were ignored (that is hardly going to endear you to friendship - is it?), secondly, the trouble in the North.....there was the Anglo Irish war and the Civil war. The idea that everyone immediately after those events were going to be freinds and everything would be forgotten is nonsense. Over time things got better. But to expect no isolated individual attrocity in the following years, given the circumstances, is just nonsense. People are not robots. Everyone does not suddenly become friends again over night. Alot of Protestants in Cork left of their own free will. At the same time many remained and they have a strong community there now and have no problems whatsoever. Alot of English people have moved to West Cork especially in recent years and the place is thriving.

How could that possibly have been the case in the decades directly following the Anglo Irish war?

July 31st, 2009, 09:05 PM	#63
nordisk celt83 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Oslo, Norway and Enniskerry, Wicklow Posts: 1,006 Likes (Received): 8	I have to agree with my fellow rep of ireland forumers that some of the comments on here are very ill-informed. I work as a language teacher in Dublin, and none of my students have ever said that have experienced racism. There is no political party of any significance in Ireland that is anti-immigration, unlike in most other European countries. In fact, immigration is a complete non-issue and wouldn't even get a mention in political manifesto's, unlike in other European countries. There's one group headed by Aine Ni Choineall called the anti-immigration platform that ran two candidates in previous elections. One in Dublin Central and one in Dublin South-Central, both finished last! (probably out of a list of something like 15candidates.) There have been no 'they took our jobs' marches in Ireland, like in other European countries, despite the fact our unemployment is predicted to reach 15%. Basically, Ireland is doing pretty well for a country that has only recently experienced large-scale immigration. Of course racism does exist in Ireland, but I think the fact we have been the subject of horrendous discrimination and racism ourselves is hardly beyond us (in fact, on these forums it sometimes still appears to be alive and well), and means most wouldn't dare visit such an experience on our newly arrives neighbours. Immigration is generally percieved as a positive thing for Ireland with dynamism and multi-culturalism the key to our future success as a nation. Last edited by nordisk celt83; July 31st, 2009 at 09:11 PM.

August 6th, 2009, 01:17 PM	#79
pricemazda King of Wishful Thinking Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Lincoln, EU Posts: 17,457 Likes (Received): 134	He never mentions the way English protestants were treated in Ireland. Listen to Graham Norton for example explain how people would make him feel like he wasn't properly Irish. or read the history how people were burnt out of their homes. Cork had one of the highest concentrations of protestants in the ROI, not anymore - what happened to them? __________________ In Brussels no one hears you scream

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July 31st, 2009, 11:24 AM	#61
Hazeley Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: London Posts: 139 Likes (Received): 0	To be fair the people weren't in Ireland, but were Irish immigrants in England. So I guess this doesn't reveal too much specifically about their feelings on migration into Ireland, but I don't think it'd be hard to guess. Had only positive experiences travelling in the South (Dublin, Kilkenny, Clare, Galway...)

July 31st, 2009, 09:13 PM	#65
nordisk celt83 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Oslo, Norway and Enniskerry, Wicklow Posts: 1,006 Likes (Received): 8	I should acknowledge that attitudes towards the travelling community/gypsies is a whole different story!!!!!!

August 1st, 2009, 03:55 AM	#66
PB-1888 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: B*FAST Posts: 479 Likes (Received): 0	Although the sudden influx of immigration into the RoI over the last 10 years has been relatively painless, the question is will this remain so in the economic downturn. No one minds taking in foreigners when the place is booming, but the southpark-esque "they're taking our jobs" mind set may well set in as everyone starts scrambling for diminishing work opportunities and benefits. As for the North being more extreme, I disagree. Human behaviour is the same no matter where in the world, and although, clearly some people in NI are racist, I think an element of the national media (whether Irish or British) like to portray NI as this hotbed of extremism so they can reassure themselves that they are not as bad as us. For example Esther Rantzen may have had a point in her criticisms of NI, but what about the trouble in Luton (where she is running for office) the week before during the parade for the returning soldiers? I think people should remember the quote, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". I'll be the last person ever to say NI is the most peaceful, liberally enlightened and welcoming place there is, but before others criticise, get your own house in order.

August 6th, 2009, 12:08 AM	#70
odlum833 In the brig Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dublin Posts: 6,496 Likes (Received): 83	To say that is "interesting" would be an understatement considering they made NI look like the US deep south for a few weeks. Must be the welfare.

August 6th, 2009, 12:13 AM	#71
belfastuniguy Subliving Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belfast Posts: 11,739 Likes (Received): 213	They can't get welfare. It's against the law. While the actual attack was horrendous, just goes to prove my point that Northern Ireland is not as bad as some people, including you Odlum wished to make out.

August 6th, 2009, 12:31 AM	#73
SnailTrain Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 526 Likes (Received): 0	There is a history of racism in the ROI that goes back many years, and the Irish are every bit as racist and intolerant when it suits them as any one else. This holier than thou crap of some folk here makes me puke. I have an English friend who is Malasian in decent, and she has experienced the full wrath of the anti-British brand of racism that always passes unchallenged. Anyway, having said all that, what's this got to do with the issues of this site?

August 6th, 2009, 12:52 AM	#76
odlum833 In the brig Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dublin Posts: 6,496 Likes (Received): 83	I have very good knowledge of Northern society and it's problems but the media reports I have to read because I don't actually live there. It seems people take issue with the fact that if sectarianism is rife for 2 centuries you can hardly expect that behaviour to disappear in certain areas when an influx of "even newer" people arrive to said community. That just does not make sense. IMO once taking that into account you are right - it is not as bad as it looks on the outside. But that does not mean that there is not and won't be issues in future.

August 6th, 2009, 02:01 PM	#80
odlum833 In the brig Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dublin Posts: 6,496 Likes (Received): 83	What do mean "English Protestants"? You are just as Irish here if you are a Protestant as if you are a Catholic. As for your accusation as to what was going on in Cork - out of context external comment as usual. There is a context to everything. Firstly the ramifications of the 1921 treaty in which the democratic wishes of this country, as a whole, were ignored (that is hardly going to endear you to friendship - is it?), secondly, the trouble in the North.....there was the Anglo Irish war and the Civil war. The idea that everyone immediately after those events were going to be freinds and everything would be forgotten is nonsense. Over time things got better. But to expect no isolated individual attrocity in the following years, given the circumstances, is just nonsense. People are not robots. Everyone does not suddenly become friends again over night. Alot of Protestants in Cork left of their own free will. At the same time many remained and they have a strong community there now and have no problems whatsoever. Alot of English people have moved to West Cork especially in recent years and the place is thriving. How could that possibly have been the case in the decades directly following the Anglo Irish war?