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Old September 20th, 2009, 07:30 PM   #21
DiggerD21
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In most german cities there is no distinctive single fare for subways/metros. They are also valid for bus/tram in the respective tariff area.

Standard single fare, paid in cash, which enables an adult person for one trip within the urban area of:

- Hamburg: 2,70 Euro (Tariff zone A+B, better known as "Grossbereich")
- Berlin: 2,10 Euro (Tariff zone A+B), 2,50 Euro (Tariff zone A+B+C, e.g. incl. Potsdam)
- Bremen: 2,20 Euro (Zone 100), 2,80 Euro (Zone 100+101)
- Hanover: 2,10 Euro (1 Zone, e.g. Hanover city), 2,80 Euro (2 Zones, e.g. Hanover and surrounding area)
- Munich: 2,30 Euro (1 zone, e.g. Munich city)
- Stuttgart: 2,40 (2 zones, e.g. Zones 10 and 20)
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Old September 21st, 2009, 12:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Northsider View Post

And in comparison to the fares of other subway systems in the "developed" world, New York's falls near the middle (that's not as good as free, as labor arbitrator Ted Kheel has demanded for decades, but hey). London, predictably enough, is the most expensive subway system by far.




The calculation of cost could be complicated by off-peak prices, reduced fares for seniors and students and the price-per-ride using monthly passes. I am not estimating those fares here, only the cost of a standard one-time use ticket. In cases where subway fares are variable, I did my best to use an average or standard fare, or for London, the fare for zone one the average cost of travel using the Oyster card at peak times in zone 1. (Corrections and updates welcome.)
Huh? Why did you put the $4.41 price for London there? That is a penalty payment to protect the environment by charging so much for a paper ticket to force people to not buy paper tickets.

A normal single fare, peak time in zone 1 in London is only £1.60 or $2.58. Who buys a paper ticket? Since the far far majority use Oyster then the standard price is the $2.58. You should reflect that in your chart.
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 09:06 AM   #23
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Huh? Why did you put the $4.41 price for London there? That is a penalty payment to protect the environment by charging so much for a paper ticket to force people to not buy paper tickets.

A normal single fare, peak time in zone 1 in London is only £1.60 or $2.58. Who buys a paper ticket? Since the far far majority use Oyster then the standard price is the $2.58. You should reflect that in your chart.
Shhh please be quiet. See American tourists don't know about Oyster. They pay more believing London is expensive, they then help subsidise those of us who live here and pay less by using Oyster.
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 02:39 PM   #24
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Huh? Why did you put the $4.41 price for London there?
I'm sounding like a broken record. 1) This is NOT my list, it's just an article I found. 2) They chose single fare, paper tickets because it was easiest to compare across all systems.

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The calculation of cost could be complicated by off-peak prices, reduced fares for seniors and students and the price-per-ride using monthly passes. I am not estimating those fares here, only the cost of a standard one-time use ticket. In cases where subway fares are variable, I did my best to use an average or standard fare, or for London, the fare for zone one the average cost of travel using the Oyster card at peak times in zone 1. (Corrections and updates welcome.)
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 06:08 PM   #25
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MADRID----> one single ticket wherever you go: 1 euro, but if you buy 10 tickets (metrobus) each one is 0.74
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 07:26 PM   #26
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I'm sounding like a broken record. 1) This is NOT my list, it's just an article I found. 2) They chose single fare, paper tickets because it was easiest to compare across all systems.
Yeah easier to compare, but that means the comparison is of little of no value. So on reality the whole thread is moot.
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 10:52 PM   #27
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Yeah easier to compare, but that means the comparison is of little of no value. So on reality the whole thread is moot.
So really we need to tally the average cost of every single rider on a transit system, then compare across all system...

You are missing the point of the article. If I were to walk into a tube station, buy one ticket, one way, then what is the average cost I'd have to pay? If I were to walk into a CTA station buy one ticket, one way, what is the average cost? Etc, etc, etc. The article is comparing single tickets to single tickets...it doesn't make much sense to compare single tickets to monthly passes; or single tickets to reduced fare; or monthly passes to reduced fare; etc. Do you see the fallacy in doing such a comparison?

Let me put it this way: If I were to make a comparison is rental cars with manual transmission and look at the average costs from a number of different countries, what sense would it be to argue that most rental vehicles in the USA are automatic transmission? The comparison is still valid regardless of popularity of manual transmission in the US.
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 11:02 PM   #28
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So really we need to tally the average cost of every single rider on a transit system, then compare across all system...

You are missing the point of the article. If I were to walk into a tube station, buy one ticket, one way, then what is the average cost I'd have to pay? If I were to walk into a CTA station buy one ticket, one way, what is the average cost? Etc, etc, etc. The article is comparing single tickets to single tickets...it doesn't make much sense to compare single tickets to monthly passes; or single tickets to reduced fare; or monthly passes to reduced fare; etc. Do you see the fallacy in doing such a comparison?

Let me put it this way: If I were to make a comparison is rental cars with manual transmission and look at the average costs from a number of different countries, what sense would it be to argue that most rental vehicles in the USA are automatic transmission? The comparison is still valid regardless of popularity of manual transmission in the US.
No you're missing the point.

98% of users of London's subway do not use paper tickets. Most tourists don't use paper tickets. And most people do not ride a subway just once.
Infact a paper ticket is so expensive because it wants to penalise you for slowing everything down. And quite right if you're a thick arse tourist who doesn't bother to read up on where you're visiting. So a single fare on LU is actually £1.60 = $2.60 at today's rate.

Also that article states NYC has the most extensive subway system in the world. Since when ? Oh right - it counts each track twice despite actually not going anyway further in route length than say the actual largest subway network in the world. So I trust nothing about what this article has to say
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 12:36 AM   #29
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Most tourists don't use paper tickets
Really? Because I did when I wasn't able to get the Oyster card at first from the airport. And 98%? This is a very generous estimate, I'm sure you have source to back that up.
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Infact a paper ticket is so expensive because it wants to penalise you for slowing everything down.
Obviously, same thing in every city. That doens't mean it doesn't happen. I see see people paying cash fares all the time despite the higher cost.
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And quite right if you're a thick arse tourist who doesn't bother to read up on where you're visiting
I really don't know how to respond to this one. I guess Londoners are just perfect.
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Also that article states NYC has the most extensive subway system in the world.
Well, that just depends on how you count it. Similar to populations, you get different numbers by city, metro, MSA, CSA, etc... Different articles say different things regarding the longest (although it is rather vague as to what "most extensiveness" entails). I really don't care who the longest is, I just feel like arguing. And holy ****, I just thought I'd post this thread for shits and giggles and all the Londoners go berserk. Jeeze, didn't any of you take statistics? You can't compare apples to oranges. He even said in the article why he calculated the costs in the way that he did.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 06:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Northsider View Post
I'm sounding like a broken record. 1) This is NOT my list, it's just an article I found. 2) They chose single fare, paper tickets because it was easiest to compare across all systems.
But you should still correct it. The paper fare is ridiculous to use since virtually no one uses it. I doubt they used it because it's "easiest" to compare, because there is no possible way in the world to explain how it is easier to compare than the Oyster fare. I just posted the Oyster fare and it was pretty damn easy.

They probably used it to make the London fare seem more expensive than it is for either personal or political reasons.

You should change your post to use the Oyster fare. It is the fare everyone uses and thus the correct one. Unless you also have a political or personal motive behind this
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 06:50 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northsider View Post
So really we need to tally the average cost of every single rider on a transit system, then compare across all system...

You are missing the point of the article. If I were to walk into a tube station, buy one ticket, one way, then what is the average cost I'd have to pay? If I were to walk into a CTA station buy one ticket, one way, what is the average cost? Etc, etc, etc. The article is comparing single tickets to single tickets...it doesn't make much sense to compare single tickets to monthly passes; or single tickets to reduced fare; or monthly passes to reduced fare; etc. Do you see the fallacy in doing such a comparison?

Let me put it this way: If I were to make a comparison is rental cars with manual transmission and look at the average costs from a number of different countries, what sense would it be to argue that most rental vehicles in the USA are automatic transmission? The comparison is still valid regardless of popularity of manual transmission in the US.
Well... let me put it this way. the Oyster is not just a monthly pass. It can be used as a single ticket. And yes, you need to make a deposit first, but you can get that back. What would you do for the Hong Kong system then, which ONLY uses an Oyster style system where you need the deposit?
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 06:55 AM   #32
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Really? Because I did when I wasn't able to get the Oyster card at first from the airport.
And why was this? I know people here in Germany that can't speak a word of English have no problems getting an Oyster card at Heathrow.

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Originally Posted by Northsider View Post
Obviously, same thing in every city. That doens't mean it doesn't happen. I see see people paying cash fares all the time despite the higher cost.
It really is a penalty payment designed to charge extra to protect the environment. So your list has all other cities on the standard fare, but for London you use the penalty fare (designed to be a fine for cutting down trees) which virtually no one uses and call this the "standard" fare

I think you can see you made a mistake here. That is no worries, we all do that. What one should do then is correct it instead of defiantly standing your ground.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:31 AM   #33
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So really we need to tally the average cost of every single rider on a transit system, then compare across all system...

You are missing the point of the article. If I were to walk into a tube station, buy one ticket, one way, then what is the average cost I'd have to pay? If I were to walk into a CTA station buy one ticket, one way, what is the average cost? Etc, etc, etc. The article is comparing single tickets to single tickets...it doesn't make much sense to compare single tickets to monthly passes; or single tickets to reduced fare; or monthly passes to reduced fare; etc. Do you see the fallacy in doing such a comparison?
Ok even with cash what is a single fare in London? Here a zone system is used. So do we compare a zone 1 to zone 1 trip, a zone 1 to 6 trip or something else? Like I said paper ticket/Oyster it doesn't matter, you just cannot do a blanket comparison of fares on systems they are so disparate in the way they charge and operate.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:34 AM   #34
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Well... let me put it this way. the Oyster is not just a monthly pass. It can be used as a single ticket. And yes, you need to make a deposit first, but you can get that back. What would you do for the Hong Kong system then, which ONLY uses an Oyster style system where you need the deposit?
I was in Hong Kong 2 weeks ago, walked up to a ticket machine and brought a single ticket, no deposit needed. Ticket in gate on exit and it takes it back. No doubt the trip cost more than it would on their Octopus system, but hey that is the cost of ad-hoc journeys like that.

You are not thinking of Singapore by any chance where you do need to first but a card and pay a deposit for said card?
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 01:31 PM   #35
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I was in Hong Kong 2 weeks ago, walked up to a ticket machine and brought a single ticket, no deposit needed. Ticket in gate on exit and it takes it back. No doubt the trip cost more than it would on their Octopus system, but hey that is the cost of ad-hoc journeys like that.

You are not thinking of Singapore by any chance where you do need to first but a card and pay a deposit for said card?
Maybe I am thinking of Singapore. Visted quite a few places at that time and I think they're all getting merged into one memory ;O)
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 06:12 PM   #36
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You are not thinking of Singapore by any chance where you do need to first but a card and pay a deposit for said card?
Or Seoul? You need to pay 500₩ as deposit for the single journey ticket (card)
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:08 PM   #37
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list of fares
I think the main problem of the list is that it compares fixed-fare systems with "pay-by-distance" systems. I pay the same amount for 1 station distance and 19 station distance. This,in a "pay-by-distance" comparison means its either a very cheap,or very expensive metro system..
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:33 PM   #38
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I think the main problem of the list is that it compares fixed-fare systems with "pay-by-distance" systems. I pay the same amount for 1 station distance and 19 station distance. This,in a "pay-by-distance" comparison means its either a very cheap,or very expensive metro system..
Quite true, but it gets even more complicated when based then on the size of the network. For instance, a city which has the same fare regardless of how far one travels may only have a network the size of Zone 1 in London. Another may cover an area equivalent to Zone 3 of London etc.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:14 PM   #39
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I think the main problem of the list is that it compares fixed-fare systems with "pay-by-distance" systems.
What else could they do? Both systems are existing, and some pay-by-distance systems are so incredibly complex and diverse that they are probably not at all comparable.

I believe what UBS did was "keeping it simple", they took just one typical trip a visitor or resident might want to ride, in this case "single fares for 10 km/6 miles or at least 10 stops". It works for very roughly comparing the cities, of course with a significant blur, but it's better than nothing.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:24 PM   #40
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In Caracas a single trip ticket cost 0,23 $
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