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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:31 PM   #41
RawLee
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What they could have done is not comparing them at all. Compare fixed systems with fixed systems,and the rest with the rest,and then have 2 separate lists.

The very clearly presented aim of the list is to compare the cost of the metros. They make up a distance they think is ok,and then measure according to that.And the geographical location of this 10kms in non-fixed cities is important,which isnt taken into consideration.


Moreover,in non-fixed systems,the cost of the distance can increase,depending on the so-called zones. They just shouldnt try to compare the consumption of an electric car,a hybrid car and an ordinary car.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:32 PM   #42
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Or Seoul? You need to pay 500₩ as deposit for the single journey ticket (card)
I rode Seoul's system in April, don't recall any deposit. Single journey.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 11:01 PM   #43
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Really? Because I did when I wasn't able to get the Oyster card at first from the airport. And 98%? This is a very generous estimate, I'm sure you have source to back that up.
Yes, if you were in London from around Jan 2007 onwards - you would have seen plenty of posters asking "are you one of the 2% still using cash to pay for travel?"

If you couldn't get the Oyster from the airport, then what was wrong with the station? And given that I suspect you're actually glossing over the truth of what you did actually do (ie. not try very hard) - I would expect the staff to tell you to ask for a refund when you could get a card.

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Obviously, same thing in every city. That doens't mean it doesn't happen. I see see people paying cash fares all the time despite the higher cost.
Where? Which city are you referring to? London or HK where smartcard is the norm, you rarely see cash. Smartcard all the way - even for tourists.

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I really don't know how to respond to this one. I guess Londoners are just perfect.
No. But only idiots travel somewhere playing ignorant. There's no excuse not to pick up a leaflet, read a sign (LU is rolling out 17 languages before you quip). Because even with Oyster, a single fare in the UK is pretty dear.

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Well, that just depends on how you count it. Similar to populations, you get different numbers by city, metro, MSA, CSA, etc... Different articles say different things regarding the longest (although it is rather vague as to what "most extensiveness" entails). I really don't care who the longest is, I just feel like arguing.
It is only ever the US which counts track length not route length. No one else does this - it makes no sense. Just like the US counts Olympic medal tallys differently. But accepted this might be the norm for you... but I am fiercely proud of LU hence bringing out the dagger on you

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And holy ****, I just thought I'd post this thread for shits and giggles and all the Londoners go berserk. Jeeze, didn't any of you take statistics? You can't compare apples to oranges. He even said in the article why he calculated the costs in the way that he did.
I think the point is - we get the figures and question the purpose of the article, but you don't and see it as "shits and giggles"
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Old September 24th, 2009, 07:59 AM   #44
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And holy ****, I just thought I'd post this thread for shits and giggles and all the Londoners go berserk. Jeeze, didn't any of you take statistics? You can't compare apples to oranges. He even said in the article why he calculated the costs in the way that he did.

Unless I am mistaken this is a discussion board. You posted something we are discussing it. Isn't that the idea?
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Old September 24th, 2009, 08:30 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
It is only ever the US which counts track length not route length. No one else does this - it makes no sense. Just like the US counts Olympic medal tallys differently. But accepted this might be the norm for you... but I am fiercely proud of LU hence bringing out the dagger on you
embarrassingly enough I also read on Sydney's "city rail" web site the use of track length to compare their system, plus the claim that they had the most complex and largest urban rail networks in the world (which of cause it wouldn't even be in the top 30)

But I certainly agree. Route length is the only valid method. No one measures a road distance between two points by adding up the lanes ;O)
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Old September 24th, 2009, 08:41 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
It is only ever the US which counts track length not route length. No one else does this - it makes no sense. Just like the US counts Olympic medal tallys differently. But accepted this might be the norm for you... but I am fiercely proud of LU hence bringing out the dagger on you
Unless I'm not paying attention or something, that article was the first one that I've read that calculated length by track only.
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Old September 24th, 2009, 11:37 AM   #47
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I rode Seoul's system in April, don't recall any deposit. Single journey.
They changed the ticket system not so long ago.
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Old September 24th, 2009, 07:49 PM   #48
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embarrassingly enough I also read on Sydney's "city rail" web site the use of track length to compare their system, plus the claim that they had the most complex and largest urban rail networks in the world (which of cause it wouldn't even be in the top 30)

But I certainly agree. Route length is the only valid method. No one measures a road distance between two points by adding up the lanes ;O)
I wouldn't say the largest, but I tell you what it is quite a large system, so no doubt right up there, well within the top 30. Just look at their fleet size.

Also be sure to compare apples with apples though, Sydney's Cityrail network is a heavy rail system, not a metro operation like London Underground etc.
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Old September 25th, 2009, 08:57 AM   #49
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I wouldn't say the largest, but I tell you what it is quite a large system, so no doubt right up there, well within the top 30. Just look at their fleet size.

Also be sure to compare apples with apples though, Sydney's Cityrail network is a heavy rail system, not a metro operation like London Underground etc.
Year, but it's still nowhere near the largest. CityRail actually covers a tri-metro area. Not tri-city, but three seperate metropolitan area's, Wollongong, Sydney and Newcastle. I think something like 240km long. Yet despite this, it even has less rail and fleet than the single metropolitan area around Frankfurt (the Rhein Main).

And there are loads of other metropolitan area's that have larger rail networks, London, Berlin, Madrid, Tokyo, Paris, Osaka, Rhein Ruhr, etc. Ok, granted, it maybe in the top 30, but it certainly can't claim to be as big as they claim.
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Old September 25th, 2009, 12:00 PM   #50
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In London Oyster cards are the standard and can be bought everywhere - every tourist should notice this when they go to the website, the first time they go and buy a ticket and everything.

In Paris the English translation of the metro website doesn't have some tarriffs on it that the French version does have... now that's real messing with tourists!
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Old September 25th, 2009, 07:48 PM   #51
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Year, but it's still nowhere near the largest. CityRail actually covers a tri-metro area. Not tri-city, but three seperate metropolitan area's, Wollongong, Sydney and Newcastle. I think something like 240km long. Yet despite this, it even has less rail and fleet than the single metropolitan area around Frankfurt (the Rhein Main).

And there are loads of other metropolitan area's that have larger rail networks, London, Berlin, Madrid, Tokyo, Paris, Osaka, Rhein Ruhr, etc. Ok, granted, it maybe in the top 30, but it certainly can't claim to be as big as they claim.
As I said compare apples with apples. Sydney is a heavy rail network. It is way bigger than Madrid and probably on par with the Paris RER network (of course in both cases excluding their metro networks).

BTW the Cityrail network extends far beyond Newcastle and Wollongong. It's southerly most point on the coast is Nowra (electric to Kiama), inland and to the south it goes to Goulburn (electic to Macauthur), to the west it goes to Bathurst (electric to Lithgow) and to the north it goes to Dungog and Scone (electric to Newcastle). So you know what? The 2000km or so of track is probably genuine route length rather than track length (ie counting a double track section twice).
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Old September 27th, 2009, 08:46 AM   #52
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As I said compare apples with apples. Sydney is a heavy rail network. It is way bigger than Madrid and probably on par with the Paris RER network (of course in both cases excluding their metro networks).
Well, my point was that the CityRail web site didn't make this distinction. It has changed the wording recently though and now says:
"The CityRail network is one of the world's most complex".

Using that terminolgy, no, it is no where near one of the world's most complex. It does not specify whether that is heavy rail, light rail or anything else. But I would like to point out most proper metro networks are in fact heavy rail still. Though you are certainly correct in stating there is a massive difference between commuter services like Sydney's and a metro system. The website also states:
"Our fleet of over 1500 carriages travel through 1,595 km of mainline track, across 888 bridges, through 46 km of tunnels and stop at 307 stations." Which reflects my point that in NSW, like New York, they use track lengths rather than route lengths which is a clear example of trying to bump up the numbers for promotional purposes.

And no, Sydney's rail network for the metropolitan area is not as big as the commuter network for Madrid or Paris (Madrid now has around 370km of route commuter services, which is larger than the route lengths within the Sydney Statistical Division, and that is of cause not including Madrid's metro-network). One has to remember that the CityRail Network is three metropolitan area's combined into one with a North South Distance of some 240km. This is not comparable and exactly as you say, "apples for apples". If I took a distance of that in any major and many minor cities in Europe and Japan, one would have a rail network FAR larger and more complex of what is found in this tri-metro area of NSW. The Cityrail quote "The CityRail network is one of the world's most complex" would simply not hold up.

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BTW the Cityrail network extends far beyond Newcastle and Wollongong. It's southerly most point on the coast is Nowra (electric to Kiama), inland and to the south it goes to Goulburn (electic to Macauthur), to the west it goes to Bathurst (electric to Lithgow) and to the north it goes to Dungog and Scone (electric to Newcastle). So you know what? The 2000km or so of track is probably genuine route length rather than track length (ie counting a double track section twice).
I know it extends further and that was described as such in my post when I used the term "metropolitan area". The Wollongong metro area extends to Nowra and Kiama etc. Although extentions to Bathurst is a quite bit out of even Sydney's metropolitan area, so not only is this figure combining three entirely seperate urban area's to beef up the number, it is also adding in country services.

And their website clearly states 1595km of track.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 11:39 AM   #53
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Although you are right the the Cityrail network spans 3 (well actually 4 if you include the Blue mountains) metropolitan area's, the fact remains this is Cityrail's NETWORK. I got 2000km from elsewhere, but if the distance is indeed 1595km, then this will NOT be counting tracks twice it will be the genuine distance.

The likes of Paris and Madrid also cover multiple urban area's too. As I said no doubt the Paris RER and Transilien network is larger, but I seriously doubt the Madrid Cercanías would be as big.

The Cityrail network has a distance from north to south of about 600km. This covers all the track once from Goulburn to Scone. In Sydney metro it takes into account the Southern line from Central to Macauthur via Liverpool, plus the short north from Strathfield to Epping and the Northern Railway to Newcastle and up to Scone. Then add another 50 of so for the spur to Dungog.

Add another 200km of seperate tracks from Nowra to Bondi Junction plus Cronulla to Southerland. Add 130km for the Western line from Central to Lithgow, add 50 for the East Hills and Airport. Then add the distance from Central to Hornsby via the shore. Chatswood to Epping via the new line, the Bankstown line, the line to Richmond and of course Carlingford. I say that 1595km is looking pretty likely and is certainly not in any way shape or form counting double track at 2x the distance.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 01:00 PM   #54
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Although you are right the the Cityrail network spans 3 (well actually 4 if you include the Blue mountains) metropolitan area's, the fact remains this is Cityrail's NETWORK. I got 2000km from elsewhere, but if the distance is indeed 1595km, then this will NOT be counting tracks twice it will be the genuine distance.

The likes of Paris and Madrid also cover multiple urban area's too. As I said no doubt the Paris RER and Transilien network is larger, but I seriously doubt the Madrid Cercanías would be as big.

The Cityrail network has a distance from north to south of about 600km. This covers all the track once from Goulburn to Scone. In Sydney metro it takes into account the Southern line from Central to Macauthur via Liverpool, plus the short north from Strathfield to Epping and the Northern Railway to Newcastle and up to Scone. Then add another 50 of so for the spur to Dungog.

Add another 200km of seperate tracks from Nowra to Bondi Junction plus Cronulla to Southerland. Add 130km for the Western line from Central to Lithgow, add 50 for the East Hills and Airport. Then add the distance from Central to Hornsby via the shore. Chatswood to Epping via the new line, the Bankstown line, the line to Richmond and of course Carlingford. I say that 1595km is looking pretty likely and is certainly not in any way shape or form counting double track at 2x the distance.
The thing is, I found documentation that the route KM for the metroplitan Sydney area (which included the central coast) was around 310km. That was a few years ago, and it did give a detaled rundown of each section including all measurements between stations, so the distance could be verified.

Where do you get the 600km from, a quick look on Google Earths shows it closer to 240km North to South.

No, the Paris and Madrid area covers the single metropolitan area. It may extend a bit out in some cases, I can not be sure, but it certainly doesn't take into account two extra complete metropolitan area's like CityRail does.

Frankfurt's metropolitan area network is covered by the RMV which states a network of around 1500km for Route rail. It has many more lines than City Rail in the area, and although it does slightly extend past the usually defined metropolitan region, it doesn't include other full metro area's.

It really is a complete twist of words on behalf of CityRail to make itself look bigger than it really is. CityRail, since it covers so much of an area, three completely seperate metropolitan area's and large swarves of countryside that has little connection to the main urban area's is more of a regional rail network than an urban one. If it's claim to be so complex is based on the fact that one single company is controlling those lines, then it should really be compared to other "regional" networks around the world and not just pure city ones. This wouldn't do it much justice though as it would still appear quite small in comparison to many others.

If you are
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Old October 1st, 2009, 08:55 PM   #55
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The thing is, I found documentation that the route KM for the metroplitan Sydney area (which included the central coast) was around 310km. That was a few years ago, and it did give a detaled rundown of each section including all measurements between stations, so the distance could be verified.

Where do you get the 600km from, a quick look on Google Earths shows it closer to 240km North to South.
Who said Sydney metro area? I was talking the CITYRAIL network.

Goulburn to Scone is 444km by road, closer to at least 500km by train as it meanders quite a lot and the rail goes via the CBD not the west like the road does.

Sydney to Katomba by road is 142km, train about the same.

Sydney to Nowra is 178km by road.


And the suburban lines are a much much more than 300km.
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Old October 1st, 2009, 10:10 PM   #56
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Who said Sydney metro area? I was talking the CITYRAIL network.

Goulburn to Scone is 444km by road, closer to at least 500km by train as it meanders quite a lot and the rail goes via the CBD not the west like the road does.

Sydney to Katomba by road is 142km, train about the same.

Sydney to Nowra is 178km by road.


And the suburban lines are a much much more than 300km.
Well... This thread is sorta about cities, not regions 600km wide.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 09:35 AM   #57
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Well... This thread is sorta about cities, not regions 600km wide.
You raised the issue that you didn't beleive Cityrail's network was a large as the claim. I have proved otherwise.

So their website is correct.

Now what was the O/T here, oh yeah ticket fares.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 10:59 AM   #58
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You raised the issue that you didn't beleive Cityrail's network was a large as the claim. I have proved otherwise.

So their website is correct.
But it's not. the RMV in Frankfurt has a larger network of rail and this is just Frankfurt. And CityRail is a "city" rail network by name more than reality as the area it covers is not much different to say England. So you may as well add England's National Rail as a comparison and that has a network so massively larger than CityRail it's not comparable.

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Now what was the O/T here, oh yeah ticket fares.
Year, ticket fares on "Subways", which CityRail isn't.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 12:33 PM   #59
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 11:13 PM   #60
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Originaly you said:

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embarrassingly enough I also read on Sydney's "city rail" web site the use of track length to compare their system, plus the claim that they had the most complex and largest urban rail networks in the world (which of cause it wouldn't even be in the top 30)

But I certainly agree. Route length is the only valid method. No one measures a road distance between two points by adding up the lanes ;O)
I think I just proved that the Cityrail network (which includes everything from Goulburn to Scone, to Lithgow and Nowra is as a large as what their website sas. Sure it isn't as big as some of the cities you mentioned but it is none the less a large and complex system and they ARE not counting track length, they are counting route length.

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But it's not. the RMV in Frankfurt has a larger network of rail and this is just Frankfurt. And CityRail is a "city" rail network by name more than reality as the area it covers is not much different to say England. So you may as well add England's National Rail as a comparison and that has a network so massively larger than CityRail it's not comparable.

Year, ticket fares on "Subways", which CityRail isn't.

No Sydney isn't a subway, and the UK's National Rail isn't a good comparision as it isn't one network, it is several networks with a common ticketing system.
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