daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 7th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #341
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

considering that this is privately financed id say the company is taking on some HUGE risk which has to be spread out over time so it doesnt tip them over
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 7th, 2012, 09:14 PM   #342
Panya
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16
Likes (Received): 0

I would guess that as much of the route is underground, there are only a certain number of TBM's available for tunneling. It would be ridiculously expensive to buy separate machines to bore under each of the underground sections, as 4 will probably be used at each set of tunnels (2 at each end for each tunnel, eastbound and westbound). I believe that these costs when added to training and recruitment costs for extra crews for such a relatively specialist technology means that keeping a low number of TBM machines and crews in one place befire moving on to the next construction area is much more financially sensible than doing it all at once.

Would anybody more familiar with the project know if this is correct?
Panya no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2012, 09:53 PM   #343
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,282
Likes (Received): 63139

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheZoolooMaster View Post
And all it will accomplish is to reduce the travel time from 2 hours 15 to about 1 hour, a much less impressive feat than the original Shinkansen cutting the travel time in 1965 from 6 hours 40 in a conventional train to 3 hours 10.
In percentages it's about the same reduction, the travel time will be halved again. That is again a big improvement.

And it's indeed the size of the investment, plus the percentage of the line that will be in tunnels that is slowing it down. Although the project it's not yet in the phase that the actual number of TBMs that will be used is known.

But you're right when you say that it's a risk that by 2045 a new technology will be even better. Although going even faster in a safe and cheap way is not that likely, even with new ongoing technological advances. It's a bit like the commercial airline industry, that also hasn't changed too much since since the introduction of the Jet age in the 1950s. The planes today still fly at the same speed as the early jets. Even though at many times it was predicted that it would go supersonic or go into space for faster travel times in no time.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2012, 10:18 PM   #344
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Does anyone have numbers for
minimal vertical radius of curve
Seconded!



Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
minimal total curve radius, and direction of the radius?
What do you mean by each of this pair?
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2012, 11:15 PM   #345
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,980
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
What do you mean by each of this pair?
When a line is not following either a vertical plane or a horizontal plane (curving in horizontal and vertical direction simultaneously) the total radius of curvature is different from the horizontal and vertical radius (and smaller than either). Its direction then is neither horizontal nor vertical.

Also, the train may be symmetrical with respect to whether the curvature in horizontal direction is to the left or right, but it does not have so much of reason to be symmetrical between upward and downward vertical component of curvature.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2012, 09:40 AM   #346
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 452
Likes (Received): 124

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
In percentages it's about the same reduction, the travel time will be halved again. That is again a big improvement.

And it's indeed the size of the investment, plus the percentage of the line that will be in tunnels that is slowing it down. Although the project it's not yet in the phase that the actual number of TBMs that will be used is known.

But you're right when you say that it's a risk that by 2045 a new technology will be even better. Although going even faster in a safe and cheap way is not that likely, even with new ongoing technological advances. It's a bit like the commercial airline industry, that also hasn't changed too much since since the introduction of the Jet age in the 1950s. The planes today still fly at the same speed as the early jets. Even though at many times it was predicted that it would go supersonic or go into space for faster travel times in no time.
In addition, spreading out the construction allows research and development to continue. They're not going to use 2012 technology in 2030. Rather, advances will allow them to use current technology.

Look at the Tokaido line. It was originally built to travel at a maximum speed of 200km/h. However, over time it has increased its speed to 270km/h along that stretch. It does travel faster than that from time to time, but that's the official max speed on the Tokaido part of the line.

Mag-Lev technology is quite old, remember. It's been around for a long time and the fundamentals don't change much. There will be advances in magnets and materials in the mean-time, but the basics of magnetic repulsion are cosmic constants.

Given the Tokaido line was built to a minimum 2500m track radius, the assumed 8000m track radius on the Chuo line will allow significantly faster trains in the future.

Personally, I wonder if they can find a way to reduce air pressure in the tunnels. The reduced energy required to cut through lower-pressure air would be a great benefit. That's the main holdback to higher speeds now.
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2012, 06:11 AM   #347
Bannor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 507
Likes (Received): 107

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Personally, I wonder if they can find a way to reduce air pressure in the tunnels. The reduced energy required to cut through lower-pressure air would be a great benefit. That's the main holdback to higher speeds now.
I think vacuum tunnels would be too expensive, and not viable unless you have the whole track inside one single tunnel. With maglev trains they can probably increase speeds 40 years from now when Japan hopefully have installed lots of fusion power reactors. That should make electricity alot cheaper, and allow for higher speeds due to cost benefits. But then you also have to consider Japan's estimated shrinking population and perhaps also decreasing demand for travel.
Bannor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2012, 10:51 AM   #348
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,282
Likes (Received): 63139

Aha, Fusion power, another technology that won't be available in the next 50 years. Japan just needs to make more use of the energy sources that are readily available, water/tidal energy and geothermal energy.

The issue really is how much more money do they want to spend to make it even faster. An hour travel time between Tokyo and Osaka is short enough for most travelers. Making it go even faster will result in significant cost increases.
It would only become interesting to speed it up if they extend the line even further to Hiroshima and Fukuoka. But that would also be another huge investment on a route that won't be as profitable as Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2012, 12:03 PM   #349
Hegemonic
Registered User
 
Hegemonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 936
Likes (Received): 366

Awesome progress, will visitors be able to enjoy test rides also?

I had the chance to ride the shinkansen to Gala snow resort 2 weeks ago and was very impressed, it was my first ride on a high spreed train.
Hegemonic no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2012, 02:49 PM   #350
SamuraiBlue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,232
Likes (Received): 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Aha, Fusion power, another technology that won't be available in the next 50 years. Japan just needs to make more use of the energy sources that are readily available, water/tidal energy and geothermal energy.

The issue really is how much more money do they want to spend to make it even faster. An hour travel time between Tokyo and Osaka is short enough for most travelers. Making it go even faster will result in significant cost increases.
It would only become interesting to speed it up if they extend the line even further to Hiroshima and Fukuoka. But that would also be another huge investment on a route that won't be as profitable as Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka.
Interesting tidbit about Maglev.
Although the polarity switching frequency of the Transrapid system is already around 250Hz the JR system is only around 60Hz so by increasing polarity switching within certain amount of time, the train can and will go faster. The superconductive magnets has much more lead way than conventional electric magnets so they have much more potential to speed it up with little increase in energy consumption.
The only reason why they haven't tested faster speed that I can think of is because the limitation in distance of tracks of the test course.
Of course JR Central will need to renew the frequency inverter but if you think about it the ones they are using right now ares probably the same inverter that power companies in the west use at power stations.
SamuraiBlue no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2012, 07:20 PM   #351
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,980
Likes (Received): 388

Timing of Chuo and Tokaido Shinkansen

Tokaido Shinkansen is 335 km long between Shinagawa Station and Nagoya Station. There are 10 intermediate stations.

Nozomi seems to cover the distance in 1:35...1:38 with 1 stop at Shin-Yokohama.
Kodama stops in all 10 intermediate stations and takes 2:40...2:41 to do so.

Chuo Shinkansen is 286 km long between Shinagawa Station and Nagoya Station. There are 4 intermediate stations:
Hashimoto
???
Takamori
Nakatsugawa

Does the quoted 40 minute trip time Shinagawa-Nagoya include all 4 intermediate stops, or does it not?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2012, 08:33 PM   #352
quashlo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 14,835
Likes (Received): 3215

No, it's likely the fastest service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegemonic View Post
Awesome progress, will visitors be able to enjoy test rides also?
Current plan is yes. First, they said yes, then they said no (because of conflict with the construction timeline and development of the train control system). Now, the latest news is that they will again aim for (paid) rides on the fully-extended test track after the necessary testing has been completed:
http://www.jiji.com/jc/zc?k=201112/2011122100902
__________________
San Francisco
Japan 2013; Japan 2011
: Tōkyō I, II, III (Kamakura), IV (Yokohama), V; Ōsaka I (+Kyōto +Kōbe), II (Kyōto), III (Nara); Hiroshima; Fukuoka; Nagasaki; Kita-Kyushu + Shimonoseki; Nikkō
quashlo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2012, 10:03 PM   #353
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
the total radius of curvature is different from the horizontal and vertical radius (and smaller than either)
(a) you mean banking, right? and (b) excuse me in advance for the maths lesson, but how can the total be smaller than either the horizontal or vertical radius, plus (c) isn't pinpointing its very own (radial) pivot impossible what with it 'forever' changing?
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 15th, 2012, 08:28 AM   #354
quashlo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 14,835
Likes (Received): 3215

JR Central invites press to tour maglev extension work
http://sankei.jp.msn.com/life/news/1...2340016-n1.htm

Quote:
 JR東海は14日、山梨県都留市を基点とした「山梨リニア実験線」の延伸区間(24・4キロ)の工事現場を報道陣に公開した。

 実験線は平成9年に先行区間として18・4キロが開通しており、延伸区間が完成すれば実験線は計42・8キロになる。完成後はリニアの車両を現行の4両から12両編成に組み替え、時速500キロでの走行試験を計画している。

 JR側がこの日公開したのは「大ノ入工区」(同県上野原市)のうち、秋山トンネル~大ノ入川橋梁~第1大ノ入トンネルの280メートル。延伸部分にある10カ所のトンネルは3月末にすべてが貫通した。

 秋山トンネルでは壁面のコンクリート工事が完了して、実験線の軌道となるトンネル内の路盤も完成。来年春に設備機能試験が予定されている。
On 2012.05.14, JR Central invited press officials on a tour of the 24.4 km extension of the maglev test track in Uenohara City, Yamanashi Prefecture. The section opened for vieweing was a 280 m segment including portions of the 3.8 km Akiyama Tunnel, the Ōnoiri River Bridge, the Tanazawa Viaduct, and the No. 1 Ōnoiri Tunnel. Tunneling work on all 10 tunnels on the extension was completed at the end of March this year. The concrete walls and trackbed inside Akiyama have already been completed.

ANN news report (2012.05.14):



Kanagawa Shimbun video report:

__________________
San Francisco
Japan 2013; Japan 2011
: Tōkyō I, II, III (Kamakura), IV (Yokohama), V; Ōsaka I (+Kyōto +Kōbe), II (Kyōto), III (Nara); Hiroshima; Fukuoka; Nagasaki; Kita-Kyushu + Shimonoseki; Nikkō
quashlo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 16th, 2012, 04:34 PM   #355
Hegemonic
Registered User
 
Hegemonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 936
Likes (Received): 366

Nice, thanks for sharing.
Hegemonic no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 16th, 2012, 10:56 PM   #356
inanutshell
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10
Likes (Received): 0

This board would be a lot poorer without you quashlo

Quote:
Kanagawa Shimbun video report:

Are those tubes for the connections between the levitation coils?

If so I'd be a bit surprised that they integrate them in the initial track bed instead of just installing fully wired track modules.

You'd think it would be cheaper to standardize the whole wiring and track construction in some factory somewhere.
inanutshell no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 17th, 2012, 08:38 AM   #357
quashlo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 14,835
Likes (Received): 3215

Well, there's supposed to be a conduit on the outer edges of the guideway behind the coil panels, for running feeder cables and such:
http://www.linear-chuo-shinkansen-cp...ds/kaibou.html

However, the guideway design looks slightly different... It's a bit hard to tell since the video resolution isn't great.
__________________
San Francisco
Japan 2013; Japan 2011
: Tōkyō I, II, III (Kamakura), IV (Yokohama), V; Ōsaka I (+Kyōto +Kōbe), II (Kyōto), III (Nara); Hiroshima; Fukuoka; Nagasaki; Kita-Kyushu + Shimonoseki; Nikkō
quashlo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2012, 02:25 PM   #358
inanutshell
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
Well, there's supposed to be a conduit on the outer edges of the guideway behind the coil panels, for running feeder cables and such:
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I'm talking about the black tubes whose ends you can see, e.g., at 0:47.

or here


I assume it's for the cross connections between the guideway coils.
You can see it in your link in the last picture above the "Doushite kabeni butsukaranai no?" (which talks about it: "「ガイドウェイ」の左右にあるコイル(浮上・案内コイル)は電線によって結ばれています。 [...]")
inanutshell no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2012, 05:22 PM   #359
k.k.jetcar
Registered User
 
k.k.jetcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sapporo
Posts: 1,812
Likes (Received): 452


Isn't that rebar? Those tubes will be encased in concrete. Wouldn't you want anything to do with power delivery to be easily accessible and removable, if required? It may be something else not as critical.
k.k.jetcar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 21st, 2012, 07:43 PM   #360
quashlo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 14,835
Likes (Received): 3215

Those do look like rebar caps a bit, but that'd be some really thick rebar, especially compared to the rebar next to it for the actual guideway "tracks". I think inanutshell is right... It's probably just tubing to protect the wires connecting the coils on opposite sides of the track. The interval between the pipes looks to be about equivalent to the center-to-center distance of the coil panels.

For reference, here are the panels on the completed section of the test track:
http://www45.tok2.com/home/todo94/ph...ar-gideway.JPG
__________________
San Francisco
Japan 2013; Japan 2011
: Tōkyō I, II, III (Kamakura), IV (Yokohama), V; Ōsaka I (+Kyōto +Kōbe), II (Kyōto), III (Nara); Hiroshima; Fukuoka; Nagasaki; Kita-Kyushu + Shimonoseki; Nikkō
quashlo no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium