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Old December 21st, 2014, 01:14 PM   #841
chornedsnorkack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Thank you. But is it wise to build smaller trains on a such heavily used corridor? (altghouh the old line will not close, and only Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka passengers will switch to the new line)
Dubious!
The capacity of Chuo Shinkansen will be 5 trains per hour, 12 cars, 4 seats abreast - meaning 240 seats X number of rows per car
Tokaido Shinkansen is 10 trains per hour, 16 cars, 5 seats abreast - meaning 800 seats X number of rows per car.

Chuo Shinkansen will add just 30 % capacity.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 01:29 PM   #842
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A Tokaido Shinkansen train has a capacity of 1323 passengers. Chuo Shinkansen is estimated 1000 passengers per train. As it's intended to relieve congestion on the Tokaido Shinkansen, even a ~30% boost is welcome.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 05:40 PM   #843
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Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
A Tokaido Shinkansen train has a capacity of 1323 passengers. Chuo Shinkansen is estimated 1000 passengers per train.
How is it estimated?
A Chuo Shinkansen train has 12 cars, while a Tokaido Shinkansen train has 16 cars. So Chuo Shinkansen train has 75 % the length.
A Chuo Shinkansen train has 4 seats in a row, while a Tokaido Shinkansen train has 5 seats in a row. So Chuo Shinkansen train has 80 % the width.
In total, I estimate that one Chuo Shinkansen train has 60 % the capacity of one Tokaido Shinkansen train. Which ought to be under 800 seats, not 1000.

Can you explain where these extra 200 seats go?
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Old December 21st, 2014, 07:17 PM   #844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How is it estimated?
A Chuo Shinkansen train has 12 cars, while a Tokaido Shinkansen train has 16 cars. So Chuo Shinkansen train has 75 % the length.
A Chuo Shinkansen train has 4 seats in a row, while a Tokaido Shinkansen train has 5 seats in a row. So Chuo Shinkansen train has 80 % the width.
In total, I estimate that one Chuo Shinkansen train has 60 % the capacity of one Tokaido Shinkansen train. Which ought to be under 800 seats, not 1000.

Can you explain where these extra 200 seats go?
It's not known how many cars the trains will have, or at least I haven't heard any definite number on how many cars they will end up using, but I guess that 16 is the number they aim for. As of today they have built 4 end cars and 12 middle sections, which means that they are able to test train lengths of a total of 14 cars. The limitations may lie in the amount of space they have at the main testing centre, that there is no space for longer trains at the moment.

All of this will be known as the opening draws near, until then it's just only guesses.

According to the Japanese L0 Wikipedia page then the end cars have 24 seats, while the intermediate ones have 68 seats. If you use this as a guide then a full 16 car train will have 1000 passengers. Though this might change a bit since green class, staff facilities, toilets, etc. will change that number, so that we might still end up closer to 900 passengers with a 16 car train.

Last edited by loefet; December 21st, 2014 at 09:18 PM.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 08:01 PM   #845
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Given the premium-fare nature of the line, the relative lack of intermediate stops, and the short travel time, I don't know if there will be much in the way of facilities on the trains.

Also, aren't they L0-type?
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Old December 21st, 2014, 09:34 PM   #846
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Fixed the spelling, yeah it's L0..

Sure, but I would still believe that there will be a Conductor's compartment, some space for the cart service, and a few toilets scattered along the train, it will be about one hour to travel from Tokyo to Osaka, so I think that at least that many features will be necessary, smoking rooms and telephones may get chopped though.

I also did a quick count of the number of windows on the trains that they use for testing, 1 window = 1 row of seats, and my conclusion is that:
All intermediate cars (right now) have 17 rows
One end car have 6 rows, where as the other one have 4,5 rows.
Why there is less space for seats in one of the end cars I don't know, but there might be a little toilet or other there just in case. I haven't seen any pictures of one though..
But since they are still testing and just having short runs with passengers then I believe that this might change for the future. I wouldn't be all surprised that the trains in revenue service will be called L1, since there is still plenty of time to gather additional data and redesign the trains for the better.

Last edited by loefet; December 21st, 2014 at 09:42 PM.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 09:39 PM   #847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Given the premium-fare nature of the line, the relative lack of intermediate stops, and the short travel time, I don't know if there will be much in the way of facilities on the trains.

Also, aren't they L0-type?
This isn't really premium fare territory. The Chuo line will be run pretty much as an extension of the Tokaido line as the new Nozomi service. They've priced the service so that it's not too much different from a regular ticket. There's a nominal upcharge ( about ¥1000 or something ) but this line is meant for everyone who normally takes Shinkansen and it will drastically reduce flights between Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka. Although it does technically serve the prefectures in-between, it is REALLY meant to connect the big three cities. 80% of trains will make NO intermediate stops, with a once hourly train making all stops.

Nozomi will be discontinued on the Tokaido line (likely replaced by a Hikari service, adding 15-20 min. to the current 1:40 trip) between Nagoya and Tokyo.

This means the Chuo Line will essentially save you 1 hour when going to/from Nagoya (a little less when transferring to Osaka).

When we're talking about capacity relief on the Tokaido line, one has to keep in mind that the population of Japan isn't really increasing. As such, there's isn't a need to drastically increase capacity. What the Chuo line will accomplish is three-fold:
  • Provide a Shinkansen alternate route between the 3 major cities
  • Likely reduce dependencies on air travel (jet fuel?) on the most important routes
  • Make Shinkansen service more accessible to prefectures like Yamanashi

As the Chuo line doesn't really go through any major population centres, it won't be adding a huge number from intermediate stations:

Population of intermediate cities
  • Sagamihara - 720,000 (essentially a suburb of Tokyo, though)
  • Kofu - 197,000
  • Iida - 105,000
  • Nakatsugawa - 55,000

I'm not going to compile a list of the stations along the Tokaido line except to say that both Shizuoka and Hamamatsu are 700,000 and 800,000 respectively.

In short, the Chuo line doesn't need to add a lot of capacity, it just needs to absorb the Osaka - Nagoya - Tokyo passengers who will make up the majority.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 09:54 PM   #848
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I just had a thought. Given that the Chuo line is predominantly underground and that due to the new law, any line that travels more than 40m underground doesn't have to compensate the landowners above, does that mean that there is a potential to not only run the line in the future to Tokyo Station, but... also to Narita?

Of course, I don't expect anyone to ACTUALLY officially say anything of this sort given the sensitivities of a Narita Shinkansen... but given that this line is potentially VERY disruptive to the domestic airline industry, with some profit sharing and costs sharing, I wonder if Train and plane could do some interlining. Book a ticket (with ANA/JAL) to Osaka and you transfer in Narita to the Chuo line to get to Osaka.

It's the one piece that's really missing in Japanese high speed infrastructure. France has a station in CDG which is gorgeous and allows you to go to Germany by train without stepping a foot in Paris. It's built into Terminal 2.



Osaka, Nagoya, Tokyo, Fukuoka, Kobe... none of them have HSR to the airport.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 10:01 PM   #849
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First time I've EVER seen anything to do with CDG described as gorgeous... Whilst I can understand how a HSR line to the airports is desirable in some cases, in others it is unnecessary really. There are premium connections to the big two at least, which are reasonably speedy.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 10:28 PM   #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
This isn't really premium fare territory. The Chuo line will be run pretty much as an extension of the Tokaido line as the new Nozomi service. They've priced the service so that it's not too much different from a regular ticket. There's a nominal upcharge ( about ¥1000 or something ) but this line is meant for everyone who normally takes Shinkansen
This line does not serve any Shinkansen stations between Shinagawa and Nagoya. Nor Tokyo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
and it will drastically reduce flights between Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka.
How many planes now fly Tokyo-Nagoya?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Although it does technically serve the prefectures in-between, it is REALLY meant to connect the big three cities. 80% of trains will make NO intermediate stops, with a once hourly train making all stops.

Nozomi will be discontinued on the Tokaido line
Meaning a big loss of capacity. There are 6 hourly Nozomis. The 4 hourly express Chuo Shinkansens have only the volume of 3 Nozomis. So only half the Nozomi capacity can be taken up by Chuo Shinkansen.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 10:48 PM   #851
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He does mention the likely replacement of the Nozomi with an all-stops Hikari service, though. I doubt they'll cut capacity on the Tokaido Shinkansen to be honest...
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 11:19 PM   #852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
First time I've EVER seen anything to do with CDG described as gorgeous... Whilst I can understand how a HSR line to the airports is desirable in some cases, in others it is unnecessary really. There are premium connections to the big two at least, which are reasonably speedy.
CDG Terminal 2 is a really nice terminal. Terminal 1 and 3 aren't that nice. Particularly the train terminal. Nice and airy and easy to get to from Terminal 2.

EDIT: A short video which showcases the airi-ness of the terminal.

The rail station is similarly airy and has the feel of a large open train station.
END EDIT

I would NOT call 1 hour reasonably speedy.
53 minutes NRT to Tokyo station
58 minutes KIX to Shin-Osaka

This isn't about a Shinkansen to Tokyo, though. This is about leveraging the Shinkansen to complement air travel.

Let's a take an 8 hour international flight into Narita from either NA or Europe and break it down:

FLY
  • 8 hour flight
  • 90 minute hour transfer window to connecting flight to KIX
  • 80 minute flight to Itami
  • 10 minutes to transfer
  • 25 minute bus trip to Umeda (35m to Namba from KIX)

Total trip time: ~11:30 hours (best case)

SHINKANSEN (Tokaido/Chuo 2027)
  • 8 hour flight to Narita
  • 30 min (avg) to transfer to N'EX
  • 68 minutes to Shinagawa Station
  • 15 minute transfer to Shinkansen
  • 147 minute train to Shin-Osaka ( 67 minutes by Chuo in 2045 )
  • 10 minutes to transfer
  • 4 minutes to Umeda (no stops)

Trip time: ~13 hrs (Tokaido Line)
Trip time: 11:45 via Chuo from Shinagawa )

SHINKANSEN (Chuo Line from Narita (2045?)
  • 8 hour flight to Narita
  • 30 minute transfer to Chuo Line (I assume it will be as frequent as N'EX)
  • 80 minutes to Shin-Osaka ( 13 minutes Narita to Shinagawa ? )
  • 10 minutes to transfer
  • 4 minutes to Umeda

Trip time: ~10 hours.

As you can see, having the Chuo line extend to Narita has the potential to completely change how travellers travel. You could save 2 hours by taking the train. On a 4 hour flight from Asia, it makes deciding between airports less important.

People who live in Sagamihara can take the Chuo line to Narita in less than the time it would take to get to Haneda.

Those in Nagoya can take advantage of more options for flights from Narita, 55 minutes away as an option to the 35 minute ride to Chubu. It really puts Narita on level footing with Haneda. You can't help but think Narita would love this. JAL/ANA will see it as a way to increase profitability and diversify its customer base.
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Last edited by bluemeansgo; December 22nd, 2014 at 11:52 PM.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 11:33 PM   #853
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
He does mention the likely replacement of the Nozomi with an all-stops Hikari service, though. I doubt they'll cut capacity on the Tokaido Shinkansen to be honest...
Exactly. I don't know why people think "removing Nozomi" means they will run fewer trains. It means they will remove the super-express service as non-stop service will be taken over by the Chuo line. One point of clarification. Hikari is not an all-stops service. It was the original Fastest service and now makes between 1 and 3 stops (out of 9 potential) between Yokohama and Nagoya. interval table here.

Nozomi: Tokyo - Shinagawa - Yokohama - Nagoya
Hikari: Tokyo - Shinagawa - Yokohama - ( 1-3 stops ) - Nagoya
Kodama: Tokyo - Shinagawa - Yokohama - ( 9 stops ) - Nagoya

This will simplify operations on the current Tokaido line as its new fastest service will serve more people, making the Tokaido line MORE convenient overall for those that live on it while being a minor inconvenience for Osaka - Tokyo passengers, most of whom will likely transfer in Nagoya.

The big winners will be Shizuoka and Hamamatsu, both of which will get more frequent service.

The thought that they will reduce the Tokaido Shinkansen line to only Kodama service is ridiculous. THAT being said, they will still lose some capacity on the line as trains that make more stops are obviously slower on average but the increased service more than makes up for it, imho.

Last edited by bluemeansgo; December 22nd, 2014 at 11:42 PM.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 12:17 AM   #854
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Are there still flights between Tokyo and Nagoya? If so is that because it's cheaper to fly or because there is significant amount of people for whom getting to airport is more convenient than to the train station?
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 12:30 AM   #855
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NGO - TYO 8 flights. 4 each for JAL and ANA

2 morning to HND
2 morning to NRT
2 afternoon to NRT
2 late evening to Haneda

You can pretty much tell that there is business travel between Nagoya and Tokyo to Haneda and the flights to Narita are for connections. NRT/HND are WAY better connected than NGO.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 01:14 AM   #856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Dubious!
The capacity of Chuo Shinkansen will be 5 trains per hour, 12 cars, 4 seats abreast - meaning 240 seats X number of rows per car
Tokaido Shinkansen is 10 trains per hour, 16 cars, 5 seats abreast - meaning 800 seats X number of rows per car.

Chuo Shinkansen will add just 30 % capacity.
Just curious, but did you take into account that the N700 is only 5 abreast in non-reserved seating? Non-reserved cars make up only 5 cars of the 16. Reserved seating is 2+2 (at least on the N700s I have travelled on).

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Old December 23rd, 2014, 09:53 AM   #857
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What is this stupid debate?

And bluemeansgo, before say something, please, stay informed:

N700 and all the Shinkansen trains on Japan except Akita and Yamagata Mini-Shinkansen.

Non-reserved: 2+3
Reserved: 2+3
Green Car (also reserved): 2+2
Gran Class (also reserved): 2+1

The Tokyo-Nagoya flights are only for international connections.


https://ruedaycarril.wordpress.com/2...rios-japon-ii/
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 10:21 AM   #858
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The Tokyo-Nagoya flights are only for international connections.
Including the 4 flights to Haneda? What are their departure times? I see 2 from 7:50 to 8:50 (60 minute trip time!) and 2 at 8:50 and 9:00 to 60 minutes later.
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Originally Posted by Sr.Horn View Post
Regarding that image: compared to car and Shinkansen, which fraction of passengers from Tokyo to destinations before Nagoya, like Shizuoka, travel by zairaisen?

Also: from Nagoya Station the travel time to Central Japan International Airport Station is 28 minutes. Just 12 minutes faster than to Shinagawa Station by Chuo Shinkansen.

AND Tokaido Shinkansen now takes just 38 minutes longer than the 60 minute (sic!) flights. Since 28 of these minutes go to reach Chubu Airport, it leaves just 10 minutes to travel out of Haneda.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 12:09 PM   #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr.Horn View Post
And bluemeansgo, before say something, please, stay informed:

N700 and all the Shinkansen trains on Japan except Akita and Yamagata Mini-Shinkansen.

Non-reserved: 2+3
Reserved: 2+3
Green Car (also reserved): 2+2
Gran Class (also reserved): 2+1
Well he is right, if the only N700 train he rode was a: Tsubame, Sakura or Mizuho.
Since the 8 car versions of both the 700 and the N700 have 2+2 seating on the reserved seating area, so does the 800 series.
The short sets that have been used for Kodama runs on the Sanyo Shinkansen line, both the defunct 0 and 100 series got 2+2 seating throughout, where as the current Kodama train the 500 series have it in 3 cars since the end of last year.

All 16 cars ones though run the normal 2+3 seating layout for standard class seats.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 12:10 PM   #860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr.Horn View Post


What is this stupid debate?

And bluemeansgo, before say something, please, stay informed:

N700 and all the Shinkansen trains on Japan except Akita and Yamagata Mini-Shinkansen.

Non-reserved: 2+3
Reserved: 2+3
Green Car (also reserved): 2+2
Gran Class (also reserved): 2+1

The Tokyo-Nagoya flights are only for international connections.


https://ruedaycarril.wordpress.com/2...rios-japon-ii/

I don't think this is a crazy debate at all. No flaming, pretty much factual and interesting.

As for the seating, I was just on an N700 in November and was surprised myself to see twice 2+2 seating in reserved and 2+3 in unreserved. I did qualify my comment by stating “at least on the trains I have ridden”. I've been on only 16-car Nozomi service before but I can't remember checking out the layout. In this case my daughter wanted to walk the train.

It was an N700 JR West 8-car train. Sakura series. Not sure if it was an N700A but I doubt it. Maybe it's a JR West thing? You sure you uhm... checked all your facts? (Sorry, couldn't resist that playful jab). ^_^





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