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Old August 12th, 2010, 04:58 PM   #301
pietje01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Then the next step would say "well, let's just run new 200km/h new Benelux trains to Brussels and that is it, no Fyra anymore"

If you started running faster (200km/h on new tracks) trains on the HSL Zuid-HSL-4 from Brussel/Bruxelles to Amsterdam, you are essentialy killing any possibility of operating a profitable service there at 300km/h that charges supplement. And the whole project was built under the assumption there would be new, improved, with seat-reserving availability, services running on HSL Zuid (I'm not saying it was the best move, but it was done deal).
So why is Thalys still taking the route from Brussels to liege, they have competition from more regular domestic services at 200 km/h.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 06:41 PM   #302
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Running all Amsterdam - Rotterdam and beyond services via a high speed line for example.
There are three different routes between Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Multiplexing all services on the new line would cut off several cities and towns in West Holland. Which would be quite a daft idea.

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When the new HSL opened between Bern and Olten all IC's on the Bern Olten route immediately started to use the new line.
All ICs is not all services. Local services calling on intermediate station remained on the old line. That is not what you suggested.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 08:17 PM   #303
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Can anyone explain precisely what about the contract changed? Is it just the ETRMS spec, (which all manufacturers involved in Europe knew was going to happen and knew they would have to deal with, and besides its just software)?

Or am I missing something?
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Old August 12th, 2010, 08:38 PM   #304
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An ideal IC network would be (just the HSL Zuid and the old line).

HSL services.

International:
- Amsterdam - Paris (Thalys)
- Amsterdam - Brussels (Fyra)
- Den Haag - Brussels (Fyra)

Trains: Thalys and Fyra sets

National:
- Amsterdam - HSL - Rotterdam - HSL - Breda - Eindhoven
- Amsterdam - HSL - Rotterdam - Dordrecht - Zeeland
- Zwolle - Lelystad - Schiphol - HSL - Rotterdam
- Den Haag - Rotterdam - HSL - Breda - Eindhoven - Limburg

trains: Upgraded VIRM sets (160 km/h) and new 200 km/h double deck trains that will replace ICR (and ICM).

Old line services:

- Amsterdam - Haarlem - Den Haag HS - Delft - Rotterdam - Dordrecht
- Amsterdam - Schiphol - Den Haag Centraal
- Zwolle - Lelystad - Schiphol - Den Haag Centraal
- Den Haag - Rotterdam - Dordrecht

trains: VIRM and DDAR

You will get a very good service on both the HSL and the old line without creating to many bottlenecks and only need to the extra infrastructure that's we need anyway like a fly-over in Den Haag between HS and Moerwijk for the trains from Rotterdam to DH Centraal.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 01:34 PM   #305
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We can expect another fiasco soon:

FS just placed an order of 50 High speed train-sets... guess which manufacture?

The board met on August 5 to approve the order, which should see a prototype completed within 300 days and entry into service by 2013.

Okay... I have to go to the toilet before I pee in my pans.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s.../browse/1.html
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Old August 13th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #306
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The new Trenitalia HST will be Bombardier Zefiro built also in AnsaldoBreda plants.

Stadler also will built some trains partly with AnsaldoBreda: the Flirt for some regional companies in northern Italy.

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I agree with that. I think that the best thing that could happen for anyone is the cancellation of the V250 trains (the ones that have been built already can be disassembled), the dissolving of HSA and a massive restructuring at AB to prevent future failures like the DSB and HSA ones. If not, let AB go bankrupt or bought by Stadler or something.
I think that AnsaldoBreda will be bought by one of the big companies. Finmeccanica doesn't like very much AnsaldoBreda, and apparently doesn't really want to save it.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 08:39 PM   #307
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If they are ever to be bought, I hope it is by Stadler and not one of the 'big three' (being Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens) because I think Stadler makes nice trains and knows what customers expect: reliable trains delivered on time. The technical knowledge is there (with AB), what they need most of all is much better project management.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #308
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I just caught a 'Fyra' train between Rotterdam and Amsterdam and I thought it was rubbish.

No hang on, let me expand a little on that.

The infrastructure is wonderful, and the journey-time is clearly a better than the norm of before.

But the actual train carriages strike me as being cheap. Were they cheap? I hope so, as I like the Dutch and don't like to think of their taxes being spent so carelessly.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 04:29 PM   #309
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The trains currently running the service have been temporarily transfered there from the regular Intercity Service between Amsterdam and Brussels until AnsaldoBreda delivers the high speed trains
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Old August 16th, 2010, 08:01 PM   #310
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I see. Excuse my ignorance, and it's quite clear that I've not been reading any of the other posts, so sorry about that.

But even for a conventional IC service the trains are cheap. And I say this coming as I do from Britain, which has fine selection of cheap and nasty trains to impress the world with.

While I'm still mentally in the Netherlands, is anyone here familiar with the reconstruction of Rotterdam station? If so, do you also think the construction site might be a little better organised?

But what really surprised me are the ticket machines on Dutch Railways? Whose decision was it to specify machines that can only accept coins, and not notes? If my VISA card would have worked on the things I wouldn't have minded, but for some reason it didn't so I had to resort to cash.

So then I had to take my notes to the central booking office area and join a queue for a machine that changed notes into coins. How dumb is that?

How could the country that is home to cycle lanes, coffee shops and gabba not have ticket machines that accept notes.......?
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Old August 17th, 2010, 12:04 AM   #311
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Quote:
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But even for a conventional IC service the trains are cheap. And I say this coming as I do from Britain, which has fine selection of cheap and nasty trains to impress the world with.
The IC NS stock looks austere and simple, but I don't think they are cheap, just (a little too much) minimalist and built for shorter travels than in other bigger countries.

Quote:
While I'm still mentally in the Netherlands, is anyone here familiar with the reconstruction of Rotterdam station? If so, do you also think the construction site might be a little better organised?
Definitively. It will be completely revamped into the most modern rail station in Netherlands. What you see in Rotterdam now is a station being rebuilt with minimal traffic disruption. Rotterdam is living up to this post-War tradition of thinking big, forward and modern.

Quote:
But what really surprised me are the ticket machines on Dutch Railways? Whose decision was it to specify machines that can only accept coins, and not notes? If my VISA card would have worked on the things I wouldn't have minded, but for some reason it didn't so I had to resort to cash.

So then I had to take my notes to the central booking office area and join a queue for a machine that changed notes into coins. How dumb is that?

How could the country that is home to cycle lanes, coffee shops and gabba not have ticket machines that accept notes.......?
This was done to cut vandalism in machines and discourage ticket buying with cash. Chip cards and debt cards are ubiquitous in Netherlands, and they are widely accept as mean of payment.

I agree, though, that manned stations should have at least one banknote-accepting machine.
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Old August 17th, 2010, 01:34 AM   #312
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You can always go to a Tickets & Service booth if you are unable to pay on any of the ticket vending machines. However, the T&S employee might add a surcharge of 50 cents, this is done by NS to promote as much passengers as possible to use the machines. Since you're unable to pay at a machine you really should refuse paying any of these surcharges.

If you're unable to buy a ticket at T&S, you could always go to the train and explain your situation to the train guard... however, NS has a policy that whoever rides a train without a valid ticket gets a € 35 fine on top of the regular fare, which can be paid later. The € 35 fine might get waived by Customer Service if there's a valid reason for it (such as, being unable to pay for the ticket).

Dutch trains are rather simple indeed, they just do the job they were made for: getting passengers from A to B. Distances in the Netherlands are small, just like the average journey time: I think that'll be around 45 minutes for a single trip. In countries like Germany, France or the UK, distances are much larger so the trains offer more comfort to be more competitive to plane and car.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 01:25 AM   #313
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Thanks for your answers and responses people.

I must say reading through my words from today on this thread I realise I may have come across as a whinger.

The truth is I've just had a fantastic holiday in Rotterdam and Amsterdam over the last week, and I still want to be in Holland. So as I sat at work today in London pretending I wasn't there, I began feeling sorry for myself and had a little rant.

I didn't really mind the Fyra rolling stock, although I did laugh a little at the coin-only ticket machines - but the real problem was my VISA card, and the Dutch can't be held responsible for that.

So anyway, goodnight.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 04:17 AM   #314
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But you are absolutely right. It IS unbelievable Dutch trainticket machines don't accept banknotes and creditcards (except those at Schiphol Airport). This is especially annoying for tourists, as the Dutch can pay with their debt cards. Another flaw is the lack of information in English, for example when a train has multiple destinations and the car numbers are announced by the intercom. It's not always clear for foreigners (and even some locals) which part of the train is going to their destination.

And those cheap trainsets of Fyra... Well, at least there is something about Fyra that is cheap, as the fare and surcharge are definitely not. It's a shame those temporary trains still have to run on this highspeed line, but that's the fault of an unreliable Italian manufacturer who was not able to deliver the new V250-stock within the agreed timeframe. So we're stuck with this situation, at least for another two years.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 09:30 AM   #315
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As Deutsche Bahn is getting closer to planning ICE trains on the London St. Pancras - Germany route, they're also interested in making a direct service from Amsterdam to London. Trial runs through the Channel Tunnel will start in a couple of weeks. If DB continues with their plans, they can be offering these services just after the 2012 London Olympics.

I don't think many passengers would ride the Amsterdam - London train, but an ICE from Amsterdam to Brussels without compulsory registration (like Thalys has and is planned for international Fyra journeys as well) would do serious damage to Fyra, I think. I'm not really worried about Thalys as that is a well-established brand (and will still be the only service to Paris for now) but Fyra is new and has had a bad start on just serving Amsterdam - Rotterdam.

Source: Telegraph
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Old August 18th, 2010, 10:19 AM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
Thanks for your answers and responses people.

I must say reading through my words from today on this thread I realise I may have come across as a whinger.

The truth is I've just had a fantastic holiday in Rotterdam and Amsterdam over the last week, and I still want to be in Holland. So as I sat at work today in London pretending I wasn't there, I began feeling sorry for myself and had a little rant.

I didn't really mind the Fyra rolling stock, although I did laugh a little at the coin-only ticket machines - but the real problem was my VISA card, and the Dutch can't be held responsible for that.

So anyway, goodnight.
Hmm, I didn't read it like that. Both on the machines and on the trains you're absolutely right imo. I also love to read any "outside" comments on our trains, they give some fresh perspective: I never gave those coin-only machines much thought for example but yes, that must be a bloody nuisance, lol!
Nice to hear that you enjoyed yourself btw.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 10:59 AM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
How could the country that is home to cycle lanes, coffee shops and gabba not have ticket machines that accept notes.......?
There is actually a link between the coffee shops and the fact that ticket machines don't accept notes.
Basically the people of the Netherlands are to tolerant. That results amongst other things in the government being to soft on crime, and the railways have thus no choice as to make sure that their ticket machines don't contain to much money. That everyone without a ticket on board is considered a fare evader is another effect.
in Switzerland ticket machines do accept notes, both Swiss and Euro (and even Reka vouchers), and you can still buy tickets on board. But someone being aggressive against a train conductor will be removed by force from the train, and will not see his own bed for the next 24 hours.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 12:24 PM   #318
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Swiss ticket machines doesn't give more than 20 CHF change (about 13 EUR) whatever is the price of the ticket. Maximum accepted note is I think 50 CHF. This means that you can't buy a 279.90 CHF ticket using six 50 CHF notes.

(by the way, the price I have given do really exist, it's about the price of a Geneva-St Gallen return first class ticket, but this can be reduced to 30 to 70 CHF following the discounts)
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Old August 18th, 2010, 12:54 PM   #319
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You will not see any form of competition to FYRA till the end of the franchise as it is protected for competition on "domestic" routes in the Netherlands and routes to Belgium.

The only thing we might expect is an ICE operated by DB which does only call at Brussels to pich up passengers for the UK.

The only competition to FYRA cuold come from an open acces operator running an hourly service over the classic line.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 01:53 PM   #320
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Quote:
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I don't think many passengers would ride the Amsterdam - London train,
Why? The current Eurostar has an attractive fare (99 euro for a returnticket from any station in The Netherlands to London St. Pancras), but you waste a lot of time in Brussel. Not just because of the check-in time, but also because of the unreliable Benelux-service to Brussels which forces me to take a train earlier.

If the ICE would eliminate those wasted time in Brussels and offers attractive fares, I think it might attract a lot of passengers. The majority of the people travelling Amsterdam-London do this by plane. It's funny there are far more flights between Amsterdam and London than there are trains between Amsterdam and Rotterdam via the HSL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL
but an ICE from Amsterdam to Brussels without compulsory registration (like Thalys has and is planned for international Fyra journeys as well) would do serious damage to Fyra, I think.
Of course, if ICE would offer an attractive fare. But would Deutsche Bahn want to compete with NS Hispeed? The ICE Amsterdam-Frankfurt and IC Amsterdam-Berlin are jointly operated by NS HiSpeed and Deutsche Bahn. Competing with Fyra would seriously harm the relations between NS and DB while they are now close allies. I don't see that happen.

Just speculation, but maybe DB could takeover HSA/NS HiSpeed. NS is losing a lot of money with HSA and might want to get rid of it. If DB would purchase HSA, it could run the Fyra-trains with it's own 200 km/h Intercity stock and takeover the NS-share in Thalys. DB could then easily add some ICEs Amsterdam-Brussels-London.

This scenario seems very attractive to both Deutsche Bahn and NS. NS gets rid of the losses on the HSL and all those struggles with AnsaldoBreda and NMBS. And DB has an unique opportunity to acquire the HSL-Zuid opperations really cheap (as HSA is losing money there). And as a side effect, DB could run the IC Amsterdam-Berlin and ICE Amsterdam-Frankfurt all by themselves, but of course they would do that still in close cooperation with NS.
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