daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 18th, 2010, 03:02 PM   #321
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Swiss ticket machines doesn't give more than 20 CHF change (about 13 EUR) whatever is the price of the ticket. Maximum accepted note is I think 50 CHF. This means that you can't buy a 279.90 CHF ticket using six 50 CHF notes.

(by the way, the price I have given do really exist, it's about the price of a Geneva-St Gallen return first class ticket, but this can be reduced to 30 to 70 CHF following the discounts)
That ticket is actually 324,-, but you'd be crazy to buy it. Just buy a half fare card, and a day pass (or two day passes if you're returning on a different day)

Anway, the ticket machines also accept all major domestic and foreign debit and credit cards. And you can, if all else fails, still buy your ticket on board. So SBB isn't really making it hard...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 18th, 2010, 05:40 PM   #322
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
There is actually a link between the coffee shops and the fact that ticket machines don't accept notes.
Basically the people of the Netherlands are to tolerant. That results amongst other things in the government being to soft on crime, and the railways have thus no choice as to make sure that their ticket machines don't contain to much money. That everyone without a ticket on board is considered a fare evader is another effect.
Thanks again everyone for the responses to my posts.

As you mention coffee shops, it may be worth me confessing that I had, ahem, been a customer of a few coffee shops in Rotterdam, and quite a lot more in Amsterdam.

I think this may have been partly the reason why I found the construction site at Rotterdam such a pain, and then found the prospect of queuing for the notes-to-coins machine a little less then relaxing.

With a fresh head I'm neither issue would have been a bother at all for me.

As for the tannoy announcements only being in Dutch, oddly enough I quite like the fact that there were no English announcements, as I simply like the sound of the Dutch language - it's like German but without the aggressive overtones (I'm only joking by the way German-speakers, I like German really).

I once began a mission to learn Dutch, as I mistakenly thought it might be easy to do, given the fact that the Dutch are such naturals with English.

One day I went to the reception of a large company in Rotterdam, and made a great effort to say 'good morning' along with some other pleasantries in my best Dutch. The receptionist told me not to bother trying to speak Dutch, as any Dutch person will be able to tell I'm British and will simply speak to me in English anyway.

But back to the High Speed line...
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 18th, 2010, 08:13 PM   #323
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21247

I don't think NS-Hispeed will be "taken over" anytime soon by any other rail company. The HSA is a SPE, even if it fails, NS-Hispeed would still have its lucrative shares on Thalys and German-bound ICEs.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 18th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #324
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 3,658
Likes (Received): 1640

Quote:
Why? The current Eurostar has an attractive fare (99 euro for a returnticket from any station in The Netherlands to London St. Pancras), but you waste a lot of time in Brussel. Not just because of the check-in time, but also because of the unreliable Benelux-service to Brussels which forces me to take a train earlier.

If the ICE would eliminate those wasted time in Brussels and offers attractive fares, I think it might attract a lot of passengers. The majority of the people travelling Amsterdam-London do this by plane. It's funny there are far more flights between Amsterdam and London than there are trains between Amsterdam and Rotterdam via the HSL.
Agree totally. The actual time on the train according to Eurostar is around 4 hours, which is less than London to Scotland by train, which isn't bad when you consider the time wasted in changing at Brussels (something you don't have to do on a trip to Glasgow).

Anyway, more important is the total time from the moment you leave your place to the moment you arrive at your destination. In this respect the train can sometimes already equal the plane. Depending upon where you live and are going to, if you are checking in luggage, and what London airports you will fly to/from, a door-to-door journey time can be anywhere from 5-6.5hours, and over 7 if there is even a small delay of 30mins. On a random search on Eurostar's website, a morning train on the 16th of September takes 4hrs16mins from London to Amsterdam including the change at Brussels. In that case, the total journey could be as low as 5.5hours. Now take away that stop at Brussels and make it direct and a time of under 5hrs is possible on some trips for some people, which would beat a plane.

Btw, return LDN-Dam flights aren't cheap anymore; trying getting one for under £90 for the total cost (so including luggage check-in, debit/credit card fee, all transport costs to and from both airports)
kerouac1848 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 18th, 2010, 10:59 PM   #325
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21247

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerouac1848 View Post
Anyway, more important is the total time from the moment you leave your place to the moment you arrive at your destination. In this respect the train can sometimes already equal the plane. Depending upon where you live and are going to, if you are checking in luggage, and what London airports you will fly to/from, a door-to-door journey time can be anywhere from 5-6.5hours, and over 7 if there is even a small delay of 30mins.
No way. Airborne time is 43 minutes. If you fly from London City, you don't need to be there with 2 hours advance. Now that BAA improved and streamlined its operations, it's well possible to arrive at Heathrow 1h40 before flight departure, provided you've checked in online and you use the drop-bag stations. 1h15 will do it if you know your way in the airport and have no checked bag.

In London City those times are lower. I wish more cities constructed executive airports like LCY.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 18th, 2010, 11:54 PM   #326
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 3,658
Likes (Received): 1640

First, LCY is designed for a niche market; that is, business people for whom price is not the most important factor. The cheapest return ticket for the middle of September is £124 with BA, headline price. For those not fitting that description LCY isn't a viable option. Even Heathrow won't be featuring for most people. The vast majority of Heathrow-Schiphol flights are connecting ones, mostly from North America, rather than stand alone (just like a guy who has recently moved into my place from California).

Second, I've done this flight twice recently and both times it took a little more than 5 hours in total. The second time I didn't even have any checked luggage and arrived about 70mins before the flight (which was delayed by about 15mins). The problem is the time it takes getting from where you are in London to the airport (or vice versa). Live anywhere apart from north-east London and getting to Stansted can take an age (easily up to 2 hours or more if you take the cheaper bus from Victoria. Which alot must do as it is 30 pounds for a return train ticket). Ditto anybody living South, East or West for Luton. The Netherlands part is a breeze by comparison.

Sure, if you can drive to any of those airports in 35mins then you can do it in about 4.5hours. But I did say for some people some times, and shit loads of people don't drive in london as it is.
kerouac1848 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2010, 09:35 AM   #327
33Hz
Registered User
 
33Hz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 436
Likes (Received): 47

A lot of people seem to think that London City = expensive. I've done this flight regularly over the past couple of years and seen prices as low as £ 17 plus tax with £ 34 plus tax being typical.

Still, some rail-based competition would be welcome and if Eurostar won't provide it, I'm glad DB are considering it.
33Hz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2010, 10:35 AM   #328
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21247

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerouac1848 View Post
Second, I've done this flight twice recently and both times it took a little more than 5 hours in total. The second time I didn't even have any checked luggage and arrived about 70mins before the flight (which was delayed by about 15mins). The problem is the time it takes getting from where you are in London to the airport (or vice versa). Live anywhere apart from north-east London and getting to Stansted can take an age (easily up to 2 hours or more if you take the cheaper bus from Victoria. Which alot must do as it is 30 pounds for a return train ticket). Ditto anybody living South, East or West for Luton. The Netherlands part is a breeze by comparison.

Sure, if you can drive to any of those airports in 35mins then you can do it in about 4.5hours. But I did say for some people some times, and shit loads of people don't drive in london as it is.
Apart from backpackers, who is crazy enough to take buses to Stansted, and not the train or their private cars?

People also don't live in the immediate vicinity of St. Pancras too. You need to account for that. Indeed, it is a flaw in many rail-or-air comparison: travel time is measured as if people lived only in close proximity of stations served by HSL and were headed only for places in close proximity of them in other country.

So it its not appropriate to compare travel times only from train station to train station and then put it side by side with time it takes for people to go from the HS train station to/from airports...

In a city like Amsterdam, it can take as much as 30 minutes for someone to arrive at the main train station. If you drive, it is far more difficult to drive and park your car near the central train station than at Schiphol Airport.

I guess it is the same in London.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2010, 03:54 PM   #329
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
People also don't live in the immediate vicinity of St. Pancras too. You need to account for that. Indeed, it is a flaw in many rail-or-air comparison: travel time is measured as if people lived only in close proximity of stations served by HSL and were headed only for places in close proximity of them in other country.
There is ofcourse also Ebsfleet, Ashford, and soon Stratford.

And time isn't everything too. If it's priced competitively I guess quite a few people would take the train from Amsterdam to London even if it took them an hour more, just to avoid the dreadful experience air travel is nowadays.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #330
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In Europe, while many rail projects fail to meet ridership forecasts upon completion, most new or widened highways fill up quickly.
Actually the opposite is true quite often. The biggest problem many railways in Europe have at the moment is that their services are too popular. I don't know of any recent rail project that failed to meet ridership forecasts, except for the Channel Tunnel (if only they hadn't handicapped it with stupid security theatre things would have been different). I don know of quite a few new services that have difficulty even meeting demand. The trains from Switzerland to Paris for example regularly sell out weeks in advance, to the point that railway officials have to fly...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2010, 08:35 PM   #331
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 3,658
Likes (Received): 1640

Quote:
Apart from backpackers, who is crazy enough to take buses to Stansted, and not the train or their private cars?
You'll be surprised. Whole families take the eurolines bus all the way.... It is £30 for a return from Liverpool st. to Stansted by train. The train is still 45mins, plus you gotta get to Liverpool st, which again varies massively depending upon where you live
Quote:
People also don't live in the immediate vicinity of St. Pancras too. You need to account for that. Indeed, it is a flaw in many rail-or-air comparison: travel time is measured as if people lived only in close proximity of stations served by HSL and were headed only for places in close proximity of them in other country.

So it its not appropriate to compare travel times only from train station to train station and then put it side by side with time it takes for people to go from the HS train station to/from airports...
I did qualify my point by saying for some people. I even said that for those who live on the edge of London and drive, they might be able to get to Stansted, Luton et al in 30-45mins. I'm not saying that the train is always quicker, merely pointing that for some people some of time it will be.

Also, I was clearly comparing door-to-door journey times, not ignoring the time it takes to get to station and board the train.

The thing about airports (which is especially important in large cities such as London) is that they are situated on one side of the city, often quite far from the boundary. If you don't happen to live on that side of the city than getting to that airport can be a pain. Train stations, however, are often hubs in the centre of town, which due to the radial nature of a transport network means that getting to it from any side of the city isn't that much of a problem. Stansted is about 55km from where I was last living in London. Gatwick 48km and Luton 35km. St Pancras was 15km with a direct train without needing to change. However, live down in Croydon and Gatwick is 25km away, so it depends (although Luton and Stansted are then over 60km away each...)
kerouac1848 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2010, 08:37 AM   #332
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerouac1848 View Post
. However, live down in Croydon and Gatwick is 25km away, so it depends (although Luton and Stansted are then over 60km away each...)
Live in Croydon and st. Pancras international is just a few stations down the line from Gatwick...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2010, 02:38 PM   #333
Maarten Otto
Registered User
 
Maarten Otto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Almere (Greater Amsterdam)
Posts: 464
Likes (Received): 24

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Actually the opposite is true quite often. The biggest problem many railways in Europe have at the moment is that their services are too popular. I don't know of any recent rail project that failed to meet ridership forecasts...
Well.... How about the Dutch HSL-Zuid where this topic is all about?
Maarten Otto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2010, 02:52 PM   #334
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
Well.... How about the Dutch HSL-Zuid where this topic is all about?
That is a bad example, especially in a discussion with Suburbanist, as HSA is doing exactly that what they should do according to him...
The counterexample is Switzerland, where the SBB is starting to really get worried about their success... The two new lines that recently have opened (the NBS Bern - Olten and the LBT) are far more successful than expected. Another line recently opened that is a lot more successful than anticipated is the TGV Est-Européen.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #335
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
Well.... How about the Dutch HSL-Zuid where this topic is all about?
Thalys is benefiting from the HSL-Zuid, their trains are quite full, despite the higher prices than before (€ 25 as opposed to € 35 for a single trip Amsterdam - Paris for the early birds). It is only Fyra that is failing miserably.
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2010, 08:19 PM   #336
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21247

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Thalys is benefiting from the HSL-Zuid, their trains are quite full, despite the higher prices than before (€ 25 as opposed to € 35 for a single trip Amsterdam - Paris for the early birds). It is only Fyra that is failing miserably.
Thalys services improved not only their travel times, but also their reliability. It was common for Thalys to get stuck behind local trains in the Den-Haag-Schiphol line.

After Trenitalia's Eurostar AV, I think Thalys is the best high-speed operator in Europe, offering reserved-seats only (a must), variable fares, incentives to advance purchase and skimming prices for last minute travelers. I wish other operators followed those both services (Eurostar - the Anglo-French one is getting it right).
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2010, 10:50 AM   #337
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
After Trenitalia's Eurostar AV, I think Thalys is the best high-speed operator in Europe, offering reserved-seats only (a must), variable fares, incentives to advance purchase and skimming prices for last minute travelers. I wish other operators followed those both services (Eurostar - the Anglo-French one is getting it right).
Trenitalia the best high speed operator in Europe? What planet are you living on?
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2010, 11:27 AM   #338
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21247

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Trenitalia the best high speed operator in Europe? What planet are you living on?
The planet in which rail is a premium service heading only toward high-speed services, leaving the bulk of slow-speed traffic to roads and highways. The planet in which rail companies act like airlines, not like a public service agency. The planet in which rail routes are cut like airline services for economic reasons and nobody can complain like it was a "right" to have transport over tracks in their city or so. The planet that requires advance planning of hefty on spot fees. The planet in which outdated and Third World on-board ticketing was abolished in the name of efficiency.

Trenitalia is far from perfect, and I'm the first to point its ailments and shortcomings, and its plagued by some remnants of union action, but at least it is on the right track. The last economic crisis just set the in the mood to study the closure of more than 700km of tracks, local ones, small branches, which is a good move. We have too many rail lines and need to build more highways to replace some of them. Exactly like Italy has been doing since the first Berlusconi Cabinet in 1996.

Now I'm with fingers crossed for full privatization of Trenitalia (I mean the passenger operator, not of RFI or any infrastructure operator).

And I wish the Dutch government fully privatized their passenger operations too, and stopped giving money (more than € 1,4 bln. last year!) to them, while diverting the funds to much more needed highway widening. A matter of priorities. The Netherlands have one of the highest per capita income in the World, we could easily afford - for instance - the sudden cancellation of all discount cards, starting with the students' ones.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Last edited by Suburbanist; August 21st, 2010 at 11:36 AM.
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2010, 12:48 PM   #339
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Trenitalia the best high speed operator in Europe? What planet are you living on?
During the last years FS group managed to reduce the deficit of the company. But to do this FS has destroyed the railway system. It was like reducing overcrowding in hospitals killing some patients, not really a good way to solve problems, but still loved by some.

Trenitalia network is unfortunately going to the disaster as Suburbanist like: a lot of extremely expensive infrastructure for a low traffic. Just like Spain is doing. Luckily Switzerland and The Netherlands (*) have understood that this lead to the destruction of railways (and congestion on roads, that is, more expenditure to enlarge them) and continue on their philosophy of "less infrastructure, more technology".

(*) except HSL-Zuid
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2010, 02:21 PM   #340
Crownsteler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Utrecht
Posts: 851
Likes (Received): 474

Quote:
And I wish the Dutch government fully privatized their passenger operations too, and stopped giving money (more than € 1,4 bln. last year!) to them, while diverting the funds to much more needed highway widening. A matter of priorities. The Netherlands have one of the highest per capita income in the World, we could easily afford - for instance - the sudden cancellation of all discount cards, starting with the students' ones.
Okey, we know you hate trains, and I'm not even going to argue with you anymore, but I'd like to correct you here. The NS payed the treasury €1.4 billion (in special dividend) last year, it did not recieve it! And aside from that, it pays the treasury each year, in the form of corporate tax (about €100 million), and a normal divided (also about €100 million).
Crownsteler no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium