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Old August 23rd, 2010, 05:40 PM   #361
Apoc89
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I believe in freedom of choice...both the car and public transport have their advantages and disadvantages, and so ideally both should be equally valid as a means of transport. Extreme anti-car dogma disturbs me just as much as the "car is the solution to all problems" ideas being spouted by Suburbanist in this thread and others.

However, it's no secret that most countries have greatly neglected public transport for the last 50 years or so in favor of automobile-oriented development. Europe, having developed mostly when PT was the main mode of transport, has been fairly lucky in this regard, although it still suffered significant damage. Countries which developed mostly during the the last half century(such as my home country of Bahrain) have in some cases completely ripped apart their public transport systems, and are now scrambling to rebuild them or expand what's left as their cities suffer severe congestion and pollution problems.

So with the car/PT balance being heavily biased in favor of the car so far in most places around the world, I'm generally in favor of transit development over road development. I still believe that major gaps in road infrastructure should be closed, and I'll be ready to defend the car if public transport reaches the same level of dominance as the car did in the '50s/'60s, but right now this looks like a very long way off.

Just my two cents on the subject.
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Old August 23rd, 2010, 07:48 PM   #362
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So basically if the population votes in favor of more spending for public transport (as it does in Switzerland) that this should be OK for you.
Yes. A lot of ideas discussed on SSC would never gain tract with politicians anyway. For instance, no matter how fast the Chinese build highways, I still despise their one-party dictatorship (PRC).

What I would support, though, would be an anti-NIMBY law to streamline the process of evaluating and adjusting transportations projects of whatever modal (tracks, road, air, water).

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I doubt you will find many people who, when confronted with the suggestion of replacing downtown Amsterdam with something looking like downtown Los Angeles, would call it "transformation" and not simply "destruction".
The Canal Belt would be perfect it there were an elevated double-deck expressway cutting all the way over the Damrak. It would provide an awesome modern, avant-grade looking to the Dam Square, for instance. An elevated highway is one of the best "here there is modernity" features a downtown can have!

Look at Genova, for instance! Houses from the 13th and 14th Centuries surrounded by a massive concrete expressway 14m above ground. It is just... wow... this is impressive.

In NL, Downtown Rotterdam, one of the best skylines in Europe (modern, without fake-reconstructed post-WW2 buildings), would be perfect with an elevated highway over the Blaak. But now we are heading into aesthetics of transport infrastructure, a secondary and of lesser importance field in relate to capacity and flows of traffic. I myself am I huge fan of brutalism.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 03:09 AM   #363
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Yes. A lot of ideas discussed on SSC would never gain tract with politicians anyway. For instance, no matter how fast the Chinese build highways, I still despise their one-party dictatorship (PRC).

What I would support, though, would be an anti-NIMBY law to streamline the process of evaluating and adjusting transportations projects of whatever modal (tracks, road, air, water).



The Canal Belt would be perfect it there were an elevated double-deck expressway cutting all the way over the Damrak. It would provide an awesome modern, avant-grade looking to the Dam Square, for instance. An elevated highway is one of the best "here there is modernity" features a downtown can have!

Look at Genova, for instance! Houses from the 13th and 14th Centuries surrounded by a massive concrete expressway 14m above ground. It is just... wow... this is impressive.

In NL, Downtown Rotterdam, one of the best skylines in Europe (modern, without fake-reconstructed post-WW2 buildings), would be perfect with an elevated highway over the Blaak. But now we are heading into aesthetics of transport infrastructure, a secondary and of lesser importance field in relate to capacity and flows of traffic. I myself am I huge fan of brutalism.

Are you serious??
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Old August 24th, 2010, 09:25 AM   #364
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Are you serious??
I'm afraid he is, but we're lucky he is alone with his opinion

Now to go back on-topic: The real problem I have with the HSL-Zuid is that is is failing because of a bad decision in terms of the business model.
This failure, together with the flawed Betuweroute can make future investments in rail infra more difficult, so I hope that they choose for the short pain and just start with integrating the HSL zuid in the domestic IC network, like they do in Belgium.

Last edited by pietje01; August 24th, 2010 at 09:31 AM.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 09:44 AM   #365
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I hope that they choose for the short pain and just start with integrating the HSL zuid in the domestic IC network, like they do in Belgium.
They lack rolling stock that could operate there without having to degrade the HSL to 160 km/h maximum as they do now with the Hooffdorp-Rotterdam sector.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 10:25 AM   #366
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The rolling stock isn't the problem, the ETCS version of the (Bombardier) locs is only compatible with version 1 and when the line is operated on version 1 the Vmax is limited to 160 km/h.

In Belgium the M6 rolling stock is also limited to 160 km/h, but the Antwerpen-Noorderkempen trains are compatible with ETCS version 2, so Thalys can go full-speed, while the domestic trains are limited to 160 km/h.

The only thing they have to do is get locs that are capable to run at 200km/h with a correct working ETCS-2 version and if possible, upgrade the rolling stock to 200 km/h, like the NMBS is doing with its I10 rolling stock.

If they do such a thing, the HSL-Zuid will turn into a mega success and they probably can't keep up with ordering extra trains to meet demand
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Old August 24th, 2010, 11:49 AM   #367
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Yes. A lot of ideas discussed on SSC would never gain tract with politicians anyway.
Few of your ideas would gain traction with the people either...

For example:

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The Canal Belt would be perfect it there were an elevated double-deck expressway cutting all the way over the Damrak. It would provide an awesome modern, avant-grade looking to the Dam Square, for instance. An elevated highway is one of the best "here there is modernity" features a downtown can have!
I suggest you take this up with one of the natives next time you're in Amsterdam. Don't be surprised if they run you out of town though.

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Look at Genova, for instance! Houses from the 13th and 14th Centuries surrounded by a massive concrete expressway 14m above ground. It is just... wow... this is impressive.
And a good way to scare all those pesky tourists away. Who needs shoppers, day trippers (and their money). A city can do without inhabitants and businesses in your world, it seems.
In your world one just drives around, but doesn't actually go anywhere, as everything worth going to has been replaced with freeways.
.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 11:54 AM   #368
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The only thing they have to do is get locs that are capable to run at 200km/h with a correct working ETCS-2 version and if possible, upgrade the rolling stock to 200 km/h, like the NMBS is doing with its I10 rolling stock.
Upgrading rolling stock to 200kph isn't that hard. SBB did it with their EW-IV stock. But I think VIRM could be adapted to 200kph and ETCS. They are supposedly already capable of running on 25Kv (or can be easily made to do so).
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Old August 24th, 2010, 11:58 AM   #369
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And a good way to scare all those pesky tourists away. Who needs shoppers, day trippers (and their money). A city can do without inhabitants and businesses in your world, it seems.
In your world one just drives around, but doesn't actually go anywhere, as everything worth going to has been replaced with freeways.
.
Scare tourists? Genova just renovated their waterfront, including a very modern aquarium and a promenade. They painted the pillars and the floor of the expressway with interesting features. The expressway, particularly because it is quite higher than usual, do not deter tourists going there.

As for shopping itself, there are always the malls - something the NL lacks badly even if it has a "shopping scene" in most of its big commercial streets that replicates malls (brand stores, standardized offer, national marketing campaigns etc). We just need to get rid of a couple farms and build some malls better than the Belgium ones

Then, you can think about building shopping complexes near HS stations. Utrecht is an early model for that. You put the train station for high-speed trains inside a mall, so you have now a beloved rail option to go shopping, and you don't need to expose yourself to the weather if want to do some shopping trip.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 12:52 PM   #370
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Sorry if I continue the off topic, but I have to say that there are plans to replace Genova's viaduct with a tunnel for obvious reasons. The only problem is financing, so the project is stopped.

http://www.google.ch/search?client=o...utf-8&oe=utf-8
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Old August 24th, 2010, 07:25 PM   #371
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Then, you can think about building shopping complexes near HS stations. Utrecht is an early model for that. You put the train station for high-speed trains inside a mall, so you have now a beloved rail option to go shopping, and you don't need to expose yourself to the weather if want to do some shopping trip.
This is generally what happens here (Korea) as around HS stations is high value commercial property. This is about the only thing I agree with you on.

I think commercial streets are nicer to visit especially if you have nothing in particular to buy and just want to look around. These kinds of shopping streets are popular in many areas so malls are not a complete alternative.

One thing you seem to forget is air quality, the best way to reduce this is to reduce the amount of cars on the road (no amount of particulate catching is going to stop it completely imo) and not tarmac over any spare land for a car park. I can't think of anywhere that has benefited aesthetically from a flyover, it is always unpleasant underneath and you end up with homes overshadowed with traffic noise.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 07:33 PM   #372
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Sorry if I continue the off topic, but I have to say that there are plans to replace Genova's viaduct with a tunnel for obvious reasons. The only problem is financing, so the project is stopped.
The "obvious reason" being that they realized what a capital mistake the viaduct was?
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Old August 24th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #373
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It's ugly: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_...vata_di_Genova
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Old August 24th, 2010, 08:04 PM   #374
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The rolling stock isn't the problem, the ETCS version of the (Bombardier) locs is only compatible with version 1 and when the line is operated on version 1 the Vmax is limited to 160 km/h.

In Belgium the M6 rolling stock is also limited to 160 km/h, but the Antwerpen-Noorderkempen trains are compatible with ETCS version 2, so Thalys can go full-speed, while the domestic trains are limited to 160 km/h.
The 160 km/h limitation under ETCS Level 1 is a limit put forth by the IVW (Inspection Traffic and Water ways), and isn't based on anything which makes sense like more regulations that the IVW has put in place (for speeds over 140 km/h railway crossings are no longer allowed, no passing through a station at speeds over 140 km/h, etc). IVW needs to realize it's the 21st century.

Other than that, there is a fundamental difference between Belgium and the Netherlands: on the HSL4 (in Belgium) ERTMS Level 1 and Level 2 can operate at the same time, the Traxx loco's could use L1 while Thalys uses L2.

However, on the Dutch part of the HSL, the party responsible for the ERTMS implementation (Siemens) has decided not to allow simultaneous operation so it's either Level 1 or Level 2. And not both. That's why Thalys only goes 160 km/h between Rotterdam and Hoofddorp.

They probably chose to do it like this because it was cheaper and at time, nobody expected the problems they're facing now (V250's delivered years late, serious problems with ERTMS on the fallback option). Hopefully somebody is scraping their head over this.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 08:34 PM   #375
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An elevated highway is one of the best "here there is modernity" features a downtown can have.
ROFL, you can't be for real? An elevated highway is something from the 1960s, it has absolutely nothing to do with modernity, you know normal people really don't like concrete, especially not in front of their ocean view.

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Look at Genova, for instance! Houses from the 13th and 14th Centuries surrounded by a massive concrete expressway 14m above ground. It is just... wow... this is impressive.
Genoa is one of the worst examples of how you can destroy cultural heritage with concrete. I've been a couple of times to Genoa and it has in my opinion by far the ugliest mediterranean waterfront, a sea of concrete completely obliterating any hint of the historical value the city once had.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 08:56 PM   #376
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Myth, a leftist one.
It is not a myth because our economic system currently depends upon the process of growth, and a fuel in growth is a steady increase in population, which therefore means more people have to move around to get to their employment, hence why after a period urban roads fill up. When cities don't grow they decline, as witnessed amongst many Western urban centres from the 1960s to late 1980s (e.g. Northern England). London and Paris's metro areas have been growing for a long time and continue to grow. In fact both are growing by about several hundred thousand each decade, probably more than half a million.

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LA doesn't have enough highways. Simple as that. LA has less highways per area or per population that other metro areas with far less congestions problems like Houston, Orlando-Tampa, Minneapolis or Salt Lake City.
That is the wrong comparison. You need to look at the percentage of road space vs. the urban area. LA is twice as dense as Houston and almost 6 times as much as Salt Lake City. In other words, the average space per person for someone in LA is much less than for those cities. Therefore, an increase in highway building will disproportionally affect someone in LA more than those cities. This will lead to a reduction in the supply of land available for development, pushing up prices unnecessarily.

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The Canal Belt would be perfect it there were an elevated double-deck expressway cutting all the way over the Damrak. It would provide an awesome modern, avant-grade looking to the Dam Square, for instance. An elevated highway is one of the best "here there is modernity" features a downtown can have!
You're forgetting one important issue; where do the cars go when they come off the motorway? Cars need somewhere to park. You would, therefore, either have to demolish whole swaths of Central Amsterdam or devote huge amounts of land to multi-level car parks, which reduces the supply of land force up prices for developers. Neither option is attractive and if put to residents and businesses would not have any popular support.

Look, the fact remains that PT, especially trains, are inherently more efficient at moving large amounts of people to centres of employment than any other transport form. The amount of space required to move people is massively less than for cars, freeing up land for other purposes. This is their economic benefit. It doesn't matter if they don't provide a profit because they pay their way many times over in indirect ways. Hence why the wealthiest large urban centres such as NY, Tokyo, Paris, London, Madrid, etc have enormous and complex train and PT networks, yet poor ones, such as Cairo, don't. The subsidisation's are a price worth paying. American cities with densities of under 1,000/km2 (or 2,000km2) are pointless comparisons to places like Amsterdam which as over 10,000/km2.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 08:59 PM   #377
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An elevated highway is one of the best "here there is modernity" features a downtown can have.
Lol, then why did Boston spend billions of dollars ripping up their central elevated highways to be placed underground with parks above? (a vast improvement in IMO having been to Boston some years ago)
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Old August 24th, 2010, 09:24 PM   #378
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The "obvious reason" being that they realized what a capital mistake the viaduct was?
Tunnel construction under unstable soil near oceanfront was far more difficult back then without modern shielding techniques that were improved and perfected only well into the 70's.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 09:45 PM   #379
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That is the wrong comparison. You need to look at the percentage of road space vs. the urban area. LA is twice as dense as Houston and almost 6 times as much as Salt Lake City. In other words, the average space per person for someone in LA is much less than for those cities.
A highway lane will have more-or-less the same flow capacity regardless if it is built near 300m towers or in the middle of the desert. If LA is more dense, it will need a higher proportion of land dedicated to highways, because more density = more people living in same area = more cars needing to move around.

So that LA has LESS % of land dedicated to highways whilst housing more people per sq. mile it is a statement that it has less highways than it would need to be at par with Houston, for instance.

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You're forgetting one important issue; where do the cars go when they come off the motorway? Cars need somewhere to park. You would, therefore, either have to demolish whole swaths of Central Amsterdam or devote huge amounts of land to multi-level car parks, which reduces the supply of land force up prices for developers. Neither option is attractive and if put to residents and businesses would not have any popular support.
I don't see many developments in Downtown Amsterdam, most of it are retrofits. And there is always the art of digging underground parking around.

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Hence why the wealthiest large urban centres such as NY, Tokyo, Paris, London, Madrid, etc have enormous and complex train and PT networks, yet poor ones, such as Cairo, don't
Most American cities, the richest country in the World, have negligible transit ridership. Even LA. NYC is an island (pun intended) in America.

In any case, driving in Manhattan is far, far, far easier and more comfortable than driving in the Canal Belt in Amsterdam (I've done both several times), and parking in Manhattan costs less than parking in Amsterdam.

So Amsterdam is clearly underserved by traffic capacity for cars, so big business have long moved away from the Channel Belt to areas like the "Zuidas", for instance.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #380
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The "holocaust" was agaisnt jews , gipsies and many others ...


... current oficial government policy in France is to rememberthe good old days and RE.relocate "undesired" groups ...





... oh ... the good old days ... they started relocating gipsies from France to Romania this month.




Will this madness ever stop ???
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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