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Old August 24th, 2010, 10:57 PM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
The "holocaust" was agaisnt jews , gipsies and many others ...


... current oficial government policy in France is to rememberthe good old days and RE.relocate "undesired" groups ...





... oh ... the good old days ... they started relocating gipsies from France to Romania this month.




Will this madness ever stop ???
Wrong thread?
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Old August 24th, 2010, 11:51 PM   #382
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A highway lane will have more-or-less the same flow capacity regardless if it is built near 300m towers or in the middle of the desert. If LA is more dense, it will need a higher proportion of land dedicated to highways, because more density = more people living in same area = more cars needing to move around.

So that LA has LESS % of land dedicated to highways whilst housing more people per sq. mile it is a statement that it has less highways than it would need to be at par with Houston, for instance.
You don't get it. The area of a city is horizontal. The movement of cars is horizontal. As such, roads take up the physical space of a city. For LA to have the capacity required to move the number of cars it has at the same speed and flow of Houston or SLC, would require it to devote much more of its urban space over than those cities do, reducing land for other uses.

To use a simple example, if both LA and SLC had the same population, yet keep the density of now, LA would be just one sixth the size of SLC, but with the same number of people. If they then all moved around by car, the amount of road space needed would take up a much greater proportion of the city's urban space.

There is also another factor. LA isn't just more crowded; it has a huge metro area of over 16m people. There are then 6 LAs in one region, but the bulk of those people are moving into one of those 6 LAs (despite the more poly-centric nature of LA compared to, say, NYC, the city still has a CBD where the bulk of legal, financial and other economic activities are performed.)

Houston's metro area is about 2.6x larger than the city. So LA isn't only twice as crowded as Houston, it has a commuting population over double its size also. The point is the sheer number of people commuting in LA is so much larger than Houston that it would be folly to construct more highways because the space needed to offer the flow of Houston would be far great than that city.
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I don't see many developments in Downtown Amsterdam, most of it are retrofits. And there is always the art of digging underground parking around.
Digging underground is a good solution for certain things, such as mid-level residential apartments, but less so for skyscrapers, or even buildings around 130m. Also, it is only a viable option when building a new development as the cost of constructing an underground car park with a building already there isn't economical.

It isn't just about car parks, but also about the road capacity of the central area. In cities with historical buildings and/or lots of different land owners you can't just flatten those districts to widen those roads to the level of the motorways that radiate in from the suburbs.
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Most American cities, the richest country in the World, have negligible transit ridership. Even LA. NYC is an island (pun intended) in America.

In any case, driving in Manhattan is far, far, far easier and more comfortable than driving in the Canal Belt in Amsterdam (I've done both several times), and parking in Manhattan costs less than parking in Amsterdam.

So Amsterdam is clearly underserved by traffic capacity for cars, so big business have long moved away from the Channel Belt to areas like the "Zuidas", for instance.
Boston, Chicago, NYC, Washington, San Francisco...

Anyway, those places you're talking about like Atlanta and Houston have low population densities and aren't comparable with crowded centres. That is the key. If they suddenly become 3x more crowded they'll either need to triple their current road capacity (at the expense of land for other uses, which would be greater with more people) or build a decent PT network to reflect their change

Amsterdam has an old historical district with canals taking up a lot of space. It makes since for the city to encourage certain businesses to move to other areas where they can develop buildings for their requirements. From the city's perspective, Zuidas makes a lot of sense so I don't see your point. Why knock down what they have when they can keep that also develop a new area? (which is closer to the airport). London and Paris recognised this.

Last edited by kerouac1848; August 24th, 2010 at 11:59 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 02:04 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Myth, a leftist one.

Even if cars cost nothing and gas were free (like air you breathe), that doesn't mean people would be driving all day all night. If the built-up footprint of NL were - say - tripled from 13% of total land area to 39% of total land area, you would reduce density to a third of what it is now, spread traffic and, with a decent program of highway building, you could easily move people around.

Gosh, drivers were not stay driving all the day, they need to work most of their days like any Western citizen.

The idea of not relieving car congestion to "force" people to use PT is just an excuse to promote a certain living arrangement, which are urban areas too dense to cope with an American-style of car mobility.
Although I have definitely a different vision than Suburbanist, I must say this is true. The Dutch traffic jams are caused by the false assumption it wouldn't make sense to build or widen highways, because they would fill again so there would be still traffic jams, just with more cars. But that is not true, since the demand for mobility is not infinite. A new highway might attract more cars, but not infinitely because the demand for mobility is limited and our population isn't growing anymore.

It's pretty obvious the assumption "it makes no sense to increase highway capacity because it will fill up again" is false. If the main highways in the Randstad area would be 2x4, the highway network could smoothly handle the traffic flow for the next 100 years. Some people don't realise there is no automatic growth in population and mobility. The growth is limited, and there even might be decline. When the babyboom generation starts to pass away, we will see our population decline. There is no way immigration could ever fill that gap, because it's simply to big. The end of the decades of growth is nearby, and this will have a strong impact on our transportation needs. A lot of people (including policymakers) underestimate the effects of a shrinking population.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 06:14 PM   #384
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Still low amount of Fyra travelers
Friday, September 3rd 2010

The Fyra trains on the high speed line between Amsterdam and Rotterdam have an average occupancy of 15 percent. That is an average of 75 passengers per train, particularly outside peak times the Fyra is hardly used. Algemeen Dagblad reported that this Friday.

During rush hour the occupancy rate of Fyra reaches at max 50 percent, off-peak trains are much less used. Treinreiziger.nl did already once an investigation into the seat occupancy, and also concluded the low rate.

Satisfied
A spokesman for the NS has announced satisfaction with the occupation of the trains. "With the normal trains it took one hundred years to reach an average occupancy of 29 percent, so this rate isn't bad for a train which runs once an hour and has been doing that for a year."

Year Cardholders
Since April 1 year cardholders have not been charged for using Fyra. This has not led to higher occupancy, for mid-February, the occupation also averaged 15 percent. December last year, NS Hispeed reported an occupancy rate of 19 percent. Starting October 4th year cardholders are to pay again for the fast train. From that point the frequency is doubled so there will be two Fyra trains per direction per hour.

Breda
NS Hispeed assumes that the occupation will increase as more Fyra trains will run on the tracks. It is intended that Fyra will drive to Breda from december as well. At present, test runs are conducted between Rotterdam and Breda under ERTMS level 2. Whether or not Fyra can actually drive on to Breda starting from december depends whether or not NS Hispeed gets the permission level to drive under ERTMS Level 2.

Spring
According to Algemeen Dagblad, the frequency will increase even further from 2011 on up. Then there would be four Fyra trains per hour, two between Amsterdam and Rotterdam, two through to Breda.
Sourced from: Treinreiziger.nl, translated with help from Google and myself.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 07:12 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by ArthurK View Post
It's pretty obvious the assumption "it makes no sense to increase highway capacity because it will fill up again" is false. If the main highways in the Randstad area would be 2x4, the highway network could smoothly handle the traffic flow for the next 100 years.
Some roads are already 2x5 at the moment. And there are still traffic jams. And you can make the A12 in to a 2x10 road in to Den Haag and the traffic jams won't disappear.

The wrong assumption everyone makes is that traffic jams are caused by roads not having enough lanes. That assumption is wrong. Traffic jams are caused by more cars arriving at a certain point than leave that point.
In the end all those cars are going somewhere, and if that somewhere can't absorb them as fast as they come you'll get a jam. That's why building yourself out of traffic jams has so little success.
When more cars attempt to enter Amsterdam than Amsterdam can absorb you'll get a traffic jam leading in to Amsterdam. You cannot solve such a traffic jam by making the road in to Amsterdam wider. You'll give it more (expensive) room that way, but the time lost by drivers remains the same.
There are only a few ways to solve that:
a) increase the city's capacity to absorb cars. That's what suburbanist is proposing. And it leads to things like elevated highways through historic cityscapes... Usually not very popular with the locals.
b) reduce the economic activity in the city. This happens by itself if you don't solve the traffic problems. Is also often not very popular with the locals...
c) get people to come to the city without their cars. That approach has the advantage of having demonstrated in several cities in the world that it can actualy work...
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 07:27 PM   #386
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Traffic jam analysis is a complex and cool science field.

Quote:
Traffic jams are caused by more cars arriving at a certain point than leave that point.
This is just one amongst many causes of retentions, one that is observable when roads are near capacity and passive traffic diversions don't exist.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 01:04 AM   #387
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May I ask why we are talking about highways in a thread about a high speed line in the railway section of the forum? It is kinda confusing to me, as I don't think the TGV sets have the right wheels for the roads... not to mention the lack of overhead wires!
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Old September 4th, 2010, 01:59 AM   #388
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Just a small off-topic deviation

Back to business, does anyone know whether Fyra will start running services to Breda in December for real? And how much will the Amsterdam-Breda be? I was thinking about € 11-12.
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Old September 5th, 2010, 06:28 AM   #389
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The only thing which is 100% sure right now is the frequency increase on Amsterdam - Rotterdam starting October 4th. HSA hopes that connecting Breda will be possible from december (14th, I think?) but this depends on whether or not the TRAXX-loco's will get the required admissions to operate under ERTMS Level 2.

I have a vague memory that these TRAXX loco's were supposed to get their admissions somewhere in april 2010, but appearantly they didn't make that target as they're now still running the IPB (Integraal ProefBedrijf - Complete Service as Test). Appearantly, Bombardier and non-Bombardier ERTMS don't mix.

On another forum I read that a hallway rumour about the Fyra supplement for Amsterdam - Breda would be € 10,60 per single trip, roughly around 60% (full fare) to 90% (discount card) of the normal fare for Amsterdam - Breda.
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Old September 5th, 2010, 06:50 AM   #390
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Quote:
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The only thing which is 100% sure right now is the frequency increase on Amsterdam - Rotterdam starting October 4th. HSA hopes that connecting Breda will be possible from december (14th, I think?) but this depends on whether or not the TRAXX-loco's will get the required admissions to operate under ERTMS Level 2.

I have a vague memory that these TRAXX loco's were supposed to get their admissions somewhere in april 2010, but appearantly they didn't make that target as they're now still running the IPB (Integraal ProefBedrijf - Complete Service as Test). Appearantly, Bombardier and non-Bombardier ERTMS don't mix.
On the flip side, once Traxx gets certified for ERTMS-2, the overall speed of Hoffddorp-Rotterdam could be increased too, which will benefit Fyra with a 3.9 minutes travel time reduction and Thalys with 6.1 minutes (Thalys can attain a higher speed than Traxx sets, and has better acceleration profile too)
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Old September 5th, 2010, 12:13 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by NS spokesman View Post
A spokesman for the NS has announced satisfaction with the occupation of the trains. "With the normal trains it took one hundred years to reach an average occupancy of 29 percent, so this rate isn't bad for a train which runs once an hour and has been doing that for a year."
Is this man joking or does he really think this is a valid argument?
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Old October 1st, 2010, 05:50 PM   #392
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Starting next monday, October 4th, Fyra will run twice an hour between Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Times have changed a little bit to allow Thalys to run on the HSL-Zuid as well. Timetable:

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Old October 1st, 2010, 07:09 PM   #393
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Will this be sufficient to attract more passengers despite the high price? We will see.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 09:06 PM   #394
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Travel times were further reduced by 2 minutes.
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Old October 4th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #395
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Fyra newzzz: there will be no Fyra services from Breda starting December. The EMC problems that have arisen before at Hoofddorp and Barendrecht apply once again near Breda. ProRail and HSA found this while doing their test runs.

New expectation for serving Breda with Fyra is halfway through 2011.
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Old October 6th, 2010, 11:18 PM   #396
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When is the Amsterdam-Brussel train supposed to run over the high speed line.
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Old October 7th, 2010, 01:41 AM   #397
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NMBS/SNCB has made it clear to HSA that they are not willing to run the Amsterdam - Brussels services with the Traxx + ICRm coaches, but only with the V250 trainsets, and only when enough trainsets are available for these services. The testing and homologation process for Traxx under ERTMS Level 2 in Belgium therefor has been halted as well.

Expectations are that next year there will be more deliveries of V250's and that international services will be able to operate starting somewhere in 2012.

But knowing AnsaldoBreda and the huge failing from almost every party involved in the HSL-Zuid, including ProRail, HSA and the Ministry, we'll probably see even more delays... I wouldn't be surprised if it would become 2015.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 03:02 AM   #398
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In (sub)urban lines 25% average occupancy is considered a very solid number. Just imagine a train with eight stops starting in suburb a, going through the city center and ending in suburb b. Now imagine the train starts empty and only on the fourth stop, everyone gets in and fills the train completely. Only one stop later everyone gets out. So from fourth to fifth station the train was occupied 100%, however on average it was only occupied 25%.

With long distance lines the whole matter is obviously more complex.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 04:34 AM   #399
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Most American cities, the richest country in the World, have negligible transit ridership. Even LA. NYC is an island (pun intended) in America.
That's because the U.S. has terrible mass transit. How can people use transit where it doesn't exist? Are you seriously this stupid?
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Old October 10th, 2010, 05:17 AM   #400
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From Friday 17.30 to Saturday 10.00 AM the north section of the HSL-Zuid is closed and trains (Thalys and Fyra) are either cancelled (Fyra) or rerouted over the old line (over the Hague). From what I have heard, this is to upgrade the software for ERTMS Level 2.
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