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Old October 10th, 2010, 02:30 PM   #401
Suburbanist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
That's because the U.S. has terrible mass transit. How can people use transit where it doesn't exist? Are you seriously this stupid?
Typical egg-and-chicken problem: do you have "terrible" mass transit because people don't use it, or people don't use it because it is terrible?

As the US has a stronger support for limited government involvement in public services (public =/= gov't run), the inherent flaws of transit and the fact became more evident, and taxpayers not always support transit projects that require tax hikes. Sure, there are cases in which they approve (TRex in Denver, for instance), but others in which they don't want to pay more.

My 2 cents: Americans love the big houses they live in and the unlimited (provided you have money) mobility the car gives you. And it follows that transit is not suitable for the preferred housing typology chosen by Americans.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #402
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Quote:
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And it follows that transit is not suitable for the preferred housing typology chosen by American.
Incredibly, I agree

But I do not with the "urban sprawl" theory - but this is also question of preferences.
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Old October 11th, 2010, 12:23 AM   #403
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Technicalities on the "Breda issue"

Does anyone know, exactly or with greater precision, what are the problems precluding pre-Fyra trains (Traxx + ICM) to run from Rotterdam to Breda?
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Old October 11th, 2010, 01:14 AM   #404
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During test runs ProRail has found out that there are some EMC (Electro Magnetic Current) related issues happening at the cross-over near Breda from the high speed tracks to the regular tracks. The 25 kV power badly influences the 1500 V tracks adjacent to them, which could cause signalling or train detection systems to fail... which in turn would lead to hazardous situations where a train might enter a section already occupied by another train, or passing a signal which shows green light while it's supposed to be red.

It's thought that EMC-issues have caused the disaster at Buizingen, earlier this year. This hasn't been proven yet, but it is a probability as high speed trains also use those tracks, and the driver claimed he saw a green light.

These problems have occured before near Hoofddorp and Barendrecht, but appearantly the situation this time is different because of the large amount of kilometers where the HSL and the other line are laying next to eachother (from Breda to beyond the Hollandsch Diep bridge).
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Old October 11th, 2010, 01:36 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
It's thought that EMC-issues have caused the disaster at Buizingen, earlier this year. This hasn't been proven yet, but it is a probability as high speed trains also use those tracks, and the driver claimed he saw a green light.
In buizingen the HST's are already running 5 km on 3kV DC, so there's no 25KV AC nearby.
Also the trains involved didn't come from/went towards the HSL, so I m wondering what wuold be the connection between the accident and the AC vs DC EMC problems?
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Old October 12th, 2010, 12:44 AM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Does anyone know, exactly or with greater precision, what are the problems precluding pre-Fyra trains (Traxx + ICM) to run from Rotterdam to Breda?
Simply, I think, because they don't have enough cars to do it... The ICM
carriages are those that were already used on the Brussels-Amsterdam
route before being renovated and repainted. They already had to retire
all cab cars : their driving posts were matched to the belgian HLE 21, so
NS decided not to renovate them. So now they are down to 6 cars per
train, and don't have the possibility to allocate any of those cars to another
route.
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Old October 12th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pietje01 View Post
In buizingen the HST's are already running 5 km on 3kV DC, so there's no 25KV AC nearby.
Also the trains involved didn't come from/went towards the HSL, so I m wondering what wuold be the connection between the accident and the AC vs DC EMC problems?
At some point in time, there were suspictions that the signal was behaving
erratically. There was even a camera to monitor it. But SNCB certainly knows
whether the advanced signal was announcing a red of not, as this is recorded
in the driver's cab.
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Old October 12th, 2010, 12:48 AM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Simply, I think, because they don't have enough cars to do it... The ICM
carriages are those that were already used on the Brussels-Amsterdam
route before being renovated and repainted. They already had to retire
all cab cars : their driving posts were matched to the belgian HLE 21, so
NS decided not to renovate them. So now they are down to 6 cars per
train, and don't have the possibility to allocate any of those cars to another
route.
Not correct. NS Hispeed has rented more ICRm coaches (not ICM!) from NS Reizigers, and those are being used on Fyra and IC Brussel as well.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 03:35 PM   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
If NS would order more Velaro from Siemens now, they might have them running before the V250's would even be admitted.

You have got to admit that if after over a year of tests the only thing which has been admitted is the pantograph... it's one hell of a crappy train! The comfort levels might be good (I don't know about that) but it sure is a horrible result that anyone should be ashamed of.

Oh, about VIRM on the HSL-Zuid? If they aren't even able to attract enough passengers to fill one ICRm-coach off-peak, a VIRM offers way too much capacity... about 5 times as much It is an interesting thought if VIRM would be retrofitted for 25 kV/ERTMS L2/200 km/h, but mostly because if that would happen those VIRMs could be used on the Utrecht - Amsterdam section.
chiming in to this thread , with very interesting comments - IMO it has been the bad bad interaction between politicians and Dutch/Belgian railway managers (say technicians) that led to this doubtful contract with AnsaldoBreda, now steering the V250 'Fyra' project to, say a big laugh !

It's the taxpayer who is paying , I'd say break up the contract and take the loss ! So far the Traxx loco's will do the job.

though in the UK railway policy is (as usual) a day by day soap (where not ... ? ) , I'm mouthwatering seeing the beautiful Hitachi 395 (V225) 'Javelins' (30 ordered) speeding along the HS1 - commissioned in time , minor problems , doing what they're supposed to do.

Last edited by Dubbeldekker; October 15th, 2010 at 08:43 PM.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 02:38 AM   #410
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Quote:
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Not correct. NS Hispeed has rented more ICRm coaches (not ICM!) from NS Reizigers, and those are being used on Fyra and IC Brussel as well.
If that is true, explain why NS highspeed as asked SNCB to provide one
rake of cars for the Brussels-Amsterdam service ?
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Old October 16th, 2010, 10:20 PM   #411
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That's because at first NS Reizigers could not miss more coaches than already had been rented to Hispeed. However, times are different now: the VIRM-4 fleet has been fully delivered, the SLT regional trains are also well underway in delivery. This means that NSR has been able to shuffle trains around a bit and they now need less ICRm coaches than they did before.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 11:46 PM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
That's because at first NS Reizigers could not miss more coaches than already had been rented to Hispeed. However, times are different now: the VIRM-4 fleet has been fully delivered, the SLT regional trains are also well underway in delivery. This means that NSR has been able to shuffle trains around a bit and they now need less ICRm coaches than they did before.
But they still seem to need the SNCB cars on the Amsterdam-Brussels
service, as I still saw this train yesterday myself. I don't believe they would
be able to provide a new service while, at the same time, they still rent cars
from abroad to run the existing services...
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Old October 17th, 2010, 01:55 AM   #413
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Couldn't they manage to rent some TGV sets that could run in place of Fyra V250 until they are delivered sometime after 2012?
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Old October 17th, 2010, 01:59 AM   #414
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The I6/I10 cars leased from SNCB are being returned in December as SNCB needs them for domestic services. ICRm coaches will take their place, but some shuffling of carriages will occur. Each Benelux train will run with a yellow/blue carriage and not a white/pink/red carriage.

Fyra also runs with carriages rented from NSR, but those have been re-stickered. Their interiors have been left unchanged, so lots of empty yellow chairs for Fyra. Given the current ridership of Fyra, I would say the number of cars on each train could easily be reduced to say, 4 cars, and there would still be enough seating capacity - even during peak hours.

With regards to the TGV question: there's a limited amount of TGV's that's equipped for the Dutch network: the Thalys sets. Each of these sets is needed for Thalys services and therefor can't be used for Fyra. Also, SNCF charges a huge sum of money for those trains... renting TGV's would be far more expensive than doing what they're doing now: run trains with pimped coaches and leased locomotives, and praying for the admission of V250.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 02:08 AM   #415
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I was thinking that if HSA rented TGV sets from SNCF, they could drop the Benelux trains altogether, retaining only the local Roosendaal-Essen regional train and using HSL4/Zuid for services between Amsterdam and Brussel/Bruxelles.

Not that I support this withdraw of competition, but once this will be the scheme, maybe it could work. I don't think people would flock to domestic Intercity services to Roosendal and then changing for the local cross-border train and then to 2 other Belgian trains to avoid paying extra € 8 - 17.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 03:06 AM   #416
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SNCF also needs their TGV sets for domestic services in France. They don't have the necessary systems (being ATB, and for some: Memor, in the future TBL1+ and 3000 volts support) so that would all need to be retro-fitted. Then the trains would have to get admitted - it could go fast because the Thalys sets are already admitted in NL and Belgium. The Thalys sets themselves are needed for serving Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris and Köln.

Apart from that, SNCF does not like the idea of Thalys being used for domestic travel. It's already possible to book a Thalys train from Rotterdam to Antwerp, but this is reservation only and a last minute ticket is expensive. A one-way Thalys ticket from Rotterdam to Antwerp, tomorrow morning, costs me € 46,-. One way!

And in your hypothetical situation: the Dutch are that cheap! If it's possible to save a few bucks they will do it... and if it isn't necessary they won't spend more euro's to get somewhere faster. Just look at the success of Fyra so far: even while it's a 20 minute time gain (33% in time on a trip Rtd-Asd), ridership is very low... even while a lot of travellers could travel without a Fyra supplement for a couple of months.

It's simple: the Benelux area is too small for high speed services with airplane like ticketing systems. When the maximum distance from A to B by car is around 3 hours not a lot of people are willing to pay much extra for a time gain.

The Fyra services from Breda have been incorporated into the NS travel planner starting December (but these trains won't run because of EMC issues!), according to ns.nl a trip from Breda to Rotterdam takes 24 minutes by Fyra, as compared to 33 minutes by regular IC. The IC is usually a bit faster (around 30 minutes) so the time gained on Breda - Rotterdam is around 6 minutes. The prices for the Fyra supplement for this part of the route aren't known yet, but it's estimated that these will be around € 4. Are you really willing to pay more for just 6 minutes of time gained?

Direct services to Amsterdam from Breda will be about 35 minutes faster than the regular intercity services: from 102 minutes to 67 minutes. This is a nice time gain... but at what price?
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Old October 17th, 2010, 11:12 AM   #417
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And here is the biggest surprise...

Fyra is a direct competitor to NS Reizigers.

Amsterdam to Rotterdam by NSR = €13,30 one way
Amsterdam to Rotterdam by Fyra = €10,50 one way and it saves you 20 minutes.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 04:02 PM   #418
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...if you book in advance with low flex tickets, giving up all flexibility which NS Reizigers does have.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 04:19 AM   #419
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Quote:
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...if you book in advance with low flex tickets, giving up all flexibility which NS Reizigers does have.
What kind of flexibility does one need if they can book the train up to ten minutes before departure?
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Old October 18th, 2010, 12:11 PM   #420
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Sometimes I change idea even a second before boarding a train (if I'm on holiday and if I have a ticket allowing it).
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