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Old February 25th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #501
sekelsenmat
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A curious solution to this problem are the seats from the trains which used to run through Brazil and now operate in the turistic lines: São Paulo - Jundiaí, São Paulo - Mogi das Cruzes

The space is open and the corridor in the middle, and the banks can be turned. Not individually, but in pairs of 2 banks in the same line. So you can choose: face forward, or face backwards.
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Old February 25th, 2011, 02:32 PM   #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Aligned parallel seats proved definitively more space when a train is full. It's simple physics: facing seat allow one to stretch her/his legs if they are up to half-full. However, when they have more than 50% load factors, people are in much less comfort as the space beneath the seats is wasted and people have to hold their legs against their own seats (which is very uncomfortable on longer journeys). Hence, trains like Eurostar and Thalys, usually running on high load factors most of the day, are keen to use parallel aligned seats (bus-like).
It depends indeed on the type of service. For example: SBB has an average load of a bout 30% on it's IC services, and requires quick passenger load/unload times. For that facing seats in bays of 4 is the optimal solution. It's also what the customers seem to prefer.

One of the problems the TGV has is that it requires rather long stops if a lot of people want to get on or of...
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Old February 25th, 2011, 08:26 PM   #503
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One of the problems the TGV has is that it requires rather long stops if a lot of people want to get on or of...
Frequency of TGV stops is lower than SBB IC's.
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Old February 26th, 2011, 04:48 PM   #504
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It's simple physics: facing seat allow one to stretch her/his legs if they are up to half-full.
Indeed. In a SBB IC I get to stretch my legs about 75% of the time. In a SNCF TGV in second class 0% of the time...
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Old May 20th, 2011, 08:36 AM   #505
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NS Reizigers just sent a newsletter announcing that it will be possible now to use OV Chipkaart (RFID public transit cards) to pay for Fyra supplements.

There is a discussion about what to do with Fyra supplements. They were drastically reduced (Rotterdam - Schiphol now costs only € 2,00 for the supplement, for instance) until July 1st, which boosted ridership, especially now that trains go to Breda and have increased their reliability a lot.

However, it appears that there will be even further delays on delivery of those nice V250 sets supposed to cost 60% more than standards fares. So a strategy might be needed to deal with the current situation of barely improved trains running at no more than 180km/h on the line (time saving are huge, though, even with this setup, particularly because the new line is a tremendous shortcut between Rotterdam and Hooffdorp).

NS has not said whether it will keep the supplements at the same price or increase them to normal levels as originally planned. Some Dutch people say there could be a backlash if supplements are raised to their original price (from roughly 14% of normal fare to 60% of normal fare), which could put some passengers back on slower trains to their much angry.

At the same time, a growing number of Benelux trains have been truncated at Rotterdam, passengers then asked to travel between Rotterdam and Amsterdam by Fyra without supplement. The practice seems to have become widespread, so they turn around delayed Benelux trains in Rotterdam such that they can depart on time back to Belgium.

Another information: is it planned to end direct Intercity service between Rotterdam and Schiphol (and thus Amsterdam) once Fyra V250 trains are operating regularly. To travel by the classic line will then require a change at Leiden or Den Haag NOI. Number of stops of Intercity trains will also be increased, to create further incentives to the use of Fyra. The change will be harmless to most commuters who can use Fyra, but direct connections between Den Haag Centraal and Rotterdam Centraal will be degraded a bit with 1 or 2 further stops.

Meanwhile, Thalys delays have been drastically reduced. Thalys are the only trains now using the HSL section between Breda junction and Antwerpen. It is my guess, now, that more people are choosing Thalys to travel between Netherlands and Bruxelles, because it is 1h10 faster and it can cost less than the regular, non-discounted fare via Benelux trains.
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 06:15 AM   #506
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Quote:
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NS Reizigers just sent a newsletter announcing that it will be possible now to use OV Chipkaart (RFID public transit cards) to pay for Fyra supplements.
That is correct, however... it is a product which is loaded onto a OV-chipkaart. This means that a passenger has to go to the NS ticket vending machine, present their card, select "Buy NS and Fyra products" and then select the desired Fyra supplement, to load it onto the OV-chipkaart. All it does is replace paper with plastic. There's some talk about a Fyra check-in point at the Fyra platforms, but nothing has been officially announced just yet.
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There is a discussion about what to do with Fyra supplements. They were drastically reduced (Rotterdam - Schiphol now costs only € 2,00 for the supplement, for instance) until July 1st, which boosted ridership, especially now that trains go to Breda and have increased their reliability a lot.
I'll get back to the supplements in a bit... if you mean train punctuality when you mentioned reliability, you're wrong. Ever since Fyra has started serving Breda, severe delays (over +10 minutes) or cancellations are not uncommon. In fact, if there's only 1 train cancelled on a day it's considered to be a 'good day for Fyra'...
Quote:
However, it appears that there will be even further delays on delivery of those nice V250 sets supposed to cost 60% more than standards fares. So a strategy might be needed to deal with the current situation of barely improved trains running at no more than 180km/h on the line (time saving are huge, though, even with this setup, particularly because the new line is a tremendous shortcut between Rotterdam and Hooffdorp).
The maximum speed for the current situation (Traxx locomotive + ICRm coaches) is 160 km/h, not 180 km/h.

V250 is still uncertain. I'm hearing mixed stories about it... some people call it utter crap (then referring to the IC4 debacle in Denmark), others say "they're almost there, it's just formalities now."
Quote:
NS has not said whether it will keep the supplements at the same price or increase them to normal levels as originally planned. Some Dutch people say there could be a backlash if supplements are raised to their original price (from roughly 14% of normal fare to 60% of normal fare), which could put some passengers back on slower trains to their much angry.
In fact, there is certainty! Locov posted a set of documents in which can be found that the currently reduced fares will be maintained until at least January 1st, 2012.
Quote:
At the same time, a growing number of Benelux trains have been truncated at Rotterdam, passengers then asked to travel between Rotterdam and Amsterdam by Fyra without supplement. The practice seems to have become widespread, so they turn around delayed Benelux trains in Rotterdam such that they can depart on time back to Belgium.
While a minor inconvenience for the passengers (having to transfer to different trains) I think this is good for both the punctuality of the Benelux service, as well as promoting Fyra services.
Quote:
Another information: is it planned to end direct Intercity service between Rotterdam and Schiphol (and thus Amsterdam) once Fyra V250 trains are operating regularly. To travel by the classic line will then require a change at Leiden or Den Haag NOI. Number of stops of Intercity trains will also be increased, to create further incentives to the use of Fyra. The change will be harmless to most commuters who can use Fyra, but direct connections between Den Haag Centraal and Rotterdam Centraal will be degraded a bit with 1 or 2 further stops.
That is correct. NS claims that this is because of the large amount of HSTs (4x national Fyra, 1x Fyra to Brussels and 1x Thalys) there is not enough capacity at Amsterdam - Hoofddorp, Rotterdam - Rotterdam Lombardijen and Breda junction - Breda.

As long as Fyra will not operate 5x an hour, there will be a regular intercity service. Once enough V250 is available, this intercity will be removed from the timetable and passengers are forced to either change trains at Leiden or use Fyra.
Quote:
Meanwhile, Thalys delays have been drastically reduced. Thalys are the only trains now using the HSL section between Breda junction and Antwerpen. It is my guess, now, that more people are choosing Thalys to travel between Netherlands and Bruxelles, because it is 1h10 faster and it can cost less than the regular, non-discounted fare via Benelux trains.
Thalys has become more reliable, indeed. And it is the fastest connection from Rotterdam to Antwerp.

The Thalys disadvantage is that there is what the Germans call zugbinding: you're restricted to a specific Thalys. I know what your opinion is about this, Suburbanist, but I don't think that zugbinding will work well for Fyra services to Brussels.

Just look at the success of Fyra reservations: even though the Fyra superdiscount was even cheaper than a one way full fare ticket with conventional trains, only a handful of people would use it. Most passengers don't want the hassle of reservations and restrictions on their daily commute. When Fyra finally operates, a trip from Rotterdam to Antwerp will take only 35 minutes. This is attractive enough for people to live in Antwerp and work in Rotterdam. Those people aren't interested in reservations, they want flexibility.

I don't think train reservation will be required on Fyra international. Possible? Yes. Required? No.
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Old May 24th, 2011, 04:48 PM   #507
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Quote:
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V250 is still uncertain. I'm hearing mixed stories about it... some people call it utter crap (then referring to the IC4 debacle in Denmark), others say "they're almost there, it's just formalities now."
Well, that sounds eerily familiar. In my native Denmark that's what people have been told too: "they're almost there, it's just formalities now." The problem is... they've been told this since 2005.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 11:22 AM   #508
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Quote:
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Just look at the success of Fyra reservations: even though the Fyra superdiscount was even cheaper than a one way full fare ticket with conventional trains, only a handful of people would use it. Most passengers don't want the hassle of reservations and restrictions on their daily commute. When Fyra finally operates, a trip from Rotterdam to Antwerp will take only 35 minutes. This is attractive enough for people to live in Antwerp and work in Rotterdam. Those people aren't interested in reservations, they want flexibility.
Not exactly true,

These tickets were very common and many people used it. It has been abolished since the Fyra supplements were reduced by almost 65%.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 11:25 AM   #509
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They might as well just cancel the V250 order and find someone else who will actually deliver like they say they will.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 11:32 AM   #510
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They might as well just cancel the V250 order and find someone else who will actually deliver like they say they will.
AnsaldoBreda have good lawyers. Usually you can't walk out of a train contract just like that.

Moreover, HSA is essentially bankrupt and kept on a lifeline by the Dutch government. It has no credit to shop around for new trains.

If not for the dealys, the V250 is a very nice project.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 11:32 AM   #511
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They might as well just cancel the V250 order and find someone else who will actually deliver like they say they will.
Will that do any good?

No.

Both Alstom and Siemens simply don't have the capacity to build 20 trains and deliver them before December this year. Let alone getting them certified for operation.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 09:50 PM   #512
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Will that do any good?

No.

Both Alstom and Siemens simply don't have the capacity to build 20 trains and deliver them before December this year.
Ansaldo will deliver?


Quote:
Let alone getting them certified for operation.
Siemens has more experience than Ansaldo. It's realistic to assume that the V250 won't be certified before 2013. I am not joking, just regarding past experiences.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 01:10 AM   #513
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Ansaldo will deliver?
They have to.

Quote:
Siemens has more experience than Ansaldo. It's realistic to assume that the V250 won't be certified before 2013. I am not joking, just regarding past experiences.
NS is promising V250 to enter commercial service april 2012, isn't it?
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Old May 29th, 2011, 03:33 AM   #514
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Pictures of Highspeed trains at Amsterdam Centraal Station
(22/05/2011)

Thalys PBA
Amsterdam-Brussels-Paris


Thalys PBKA
Amsterdam-Brussels-Paris


NS Highspeed ICE
Amsterdam-Frankfurt




NS Highspeed Fyra, currently with the hired Bombardier Traxx locomotive
Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Breda


NS Highspeed Fyra and NS Interregio train
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Old May 30th, 2011, 05:58 AM   #515
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NS Highspeed Fyra, currently with the hired Bombardier Traxx locomotive
Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Breda

What is max speed in this configuration ?
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Old May 30th, 2011, 08:13 AM   #516
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160 km/h, not really "high speed"
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Old May 30th, 2011, 07:31 PM   #517
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According to UIC and international definitions, the current Fyra service can't even be classified as "high speed" (since that starts at 200 km/h on existing track or 250 km/h on newly built track).
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Old May 30th, 2011, 08:00 PM   #518
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What I am disappointed about these delays is that they undermine the public confidence that would be needed to further expand the HSL-Zuid. For instance: a high-speed bypass + new HSR-only station in Rotterdam (to be connect with Roterdam Centraal via escalators or smth). HS trains lose much time until Rotterdam Lombardijen. They need to build a new tunnel under the Maas to start accelerating Fyra trains the moment they leave Rotterdam HS station.

With all such fiasco, I doubt they will have the wherewithal to dig another tunnel under the Maas, and also some new Schiphol-Amsterdam Zuid tunnel to integrate HSR with the future rail-subway hub that will be built there.
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Old May 30th, 2011, 09:13 PM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
What I am disappointed about these delays is that they undermine the public confidence that would be needed to further expand the HSL-Zuid. For instance: a high-speed bypass + new HSR-only station in Rotterdam (to be connect with Roterdam Centraal via escalators or smth). HS trains lose much time until Rotterdam Lombardijen. They need to build a new tunnel under the Maas to start accelerating Fyra trains the moment they leave Rotterdam HS station.

With all such fiasco, I doubt they will have the wherewithal to dig another tunnel under the Maas, and also some new Schiphol-Amsterdam Zuid tunnel to integrate HSR with the future rail-subway hub that will be built there.
There is zero to little benefit for that. High speed trains have to accelerate first, and they won't get any faster until they get until after the Willemstunnel. Perhaps you can gain some time by extending the southern part from Barendrecht to Rotterdam Zuid, but this will costs millions of euros for perhaps 1 minute of time gained.

Public confidence is key, and the confidence is at a very low rate as-is, something which will be very hard for NS Hispeed to recover from. This will be hard especially if they want to attract new customers. After all, all the public sees is temporary trains that suffer frequent delays and cancellations (just take a look at @Failra on Twitter and the #Fyra hashtag) and new Italian trains that do nothing more than test runs and standing at Watergraafsmeer, covered in graffiti.
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Old May 30th, 2011, 09:42 PM   #520
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Randstadrail was a also a project that had huge confidence problems during the start up with all the delays, but now it's even more popular then the old trains. The moment the Fyra services start to work properly all the problems will properly be forgotten in no time.
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