THE NETHERLANDS | High Speed Rail - Page 3

33Hz · November 16th, 2008, 07:06 PM

An update on HSL Zuid. I've been translating Dutch articles to find this, perhaps someone can check my understanding.

From http://www.hslzuid.nl/hsl/Nieuws/nie...pportage.jsp#0

It seems that testing of ERTMS 2.3.0 has recently gone well and the line is now ready for 300km/h. Testing of the transitions to the rest of the Dutch network and the Belgian border crossing have also gone well. They are just waiting for finishing of the testing on the Belgian Line 4 now (which should be complete mid-December).

However, testing with Traxx locos has been showing up some reliability problems and this puts in doubt the start of passenger services on the Amsterdam to Rotterdam section in mid-January. Seperately, Bombardier has said that they might not be able to deliver ERTMS level 2 on these locomotives until spring 2010. This is needed for these trains to coexist with Thalys services on the line.

The planned equiping of Thalys trains for ERTMS and 300km/h running was to have taken place by May 2009, but there is a 50% chance this might slip until the end of July. Safety cases are also needed for this equipment from the Belgian, German and French railways.

The source of dust in the Green Heart Tunnel has not been found, but it has been determined to be non-hazardous and not likely to cause problems with equipment. The passage of test trains seems to have diminished this dust.

The Ansaldo-Breda trains should start to come available in autumn 2009, with full fleet delivered in 2010. However they will still need to be checked for ERTMS compatability.

The HSA company may require assistance from public funds because of the late start to services.

Have I missed anything?

Glodenox · November 17th, 2008, 06:48 PM

That's more or less everything indeed.
Seems like you've had a good translation

Greetings,
Glodenox

xlchris · July 9th, 2009, 08:18 PM

JoKo65 · July 9th, 2009, 09:11 PM

But the Cologne–Frankfurt service is ICE, right?

xlchris · July 9th, 2009, 10:44 PM

Well, it's a map showing where NS Hispeed goes, it's not only the new Fyra train but also Thalys and ICE.

The Fyra trains have a top speed of 250km/h, but the maximum speed on tracks between Amsterdam and Rotterdam is only 160km/h

First services start at september 7th...finally after a few years of delay. They had to start driving in april 2007, but it got delayed and delayed.
They are now going to replace the trains, the actual trains from AnsaldoBreda are going to drive on the tracks somewhere in 2010!

ArthurK · July 9th, 2009, 11:16 PM

The Fyra will just run between Amsterdam and Brussels only. When the high speed line between Amsterdam and Antwerp is completely in service and all Fyra-trainsets are delivered, the Fyra will provide the following railservices:
- Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport-Rotterdam-Antwerp-Brussels (1x /hour, with the Thalys to Paris also running 1x /hour)
- Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport-Rotterdam-Breda (2x /hour)
- Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport-Rotterdam (2x /hour)
- The Hague-Rotterdam-Breda-Noorderkempen-Antwerp-Mechelen-Brussels (1x /2 hours)
The frequency between Amsterdam and Rotterdam will be 6x /hour, including Thalys-services to Paris.

Edit: diagram of the frequencies a day:

sergiogiorgini · July 9th, 2009, 11:29 PM

Just to clarify: NS Hispeed is just the Dutch Railways' (NS') division for international ticket sales in the Netherlands, and will operate the Fyra through a co-operation with KLM called the High Speed Alliance. It's basically just a lot of hoo-haw, a rebranding of a division that has existed for decades, nothing more.

The interesting part is the Fyra, which will indeed serve Amsterdam, Schiphol Airport, Rotterdam, Breda, Antwerp and Brussels. It will share the HSL-Zuid/HSL 4 lines with Thalys.

Everything else is plain old ICE, Thalys, TGV, Eurostar, etc...

sergiogiorgini · July 10th, 2009, 12:10 AM

I'm not sure about Fyra serving The Hague, by the way. It's not on the map on the new official website: http://www.fyra.com//index.php?page=home-en&hl=en_US

Not that it would matter much, since there's no high-speed rail between Rotterdam and The Hague. You might as well just catch a regular train and switch in Rotterdam.

ArthurK · July 10th, 2009, 12:42 AM

There was a strong lobby by the city of The Hague to get an connection to the high speed network. The government decided in the early nineties that the new high speed line would run directly from Rotterdam to Schiphol, instead of following the A4-motorway via The Hague. In order to compensate The Hague, they decided to plan 8 trains a day (once every 2 hours) from The Hague to Brussels. There will also be a shuttle train (= a pimped IC-trainset), which shall run just between Rotterdam and The Hague on the hours with no "highspeed" service to The Hague. As far as I know, this is still the plan.

But it shall take some years until all Fyra-trainsets (19 in total: 16 Dutch and 3 Belgian) are delivered. I guess we shouldn't expect the The Hague-service soon, as it might last another two or three years. Maybe that's why it isn't on the map of the Fyra-website...

It will take more than a year before the first Fyra-trains shall start commercial services.

sergiogiorgini · July 10th, 2009, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArthurK

There was a strong lobby by the city of The Hague to get an connection to the high speed network. The government decided in the early nineties that the new high speed line would run directly from Rotterdam to Schiphol, instead of following the A4-motorway via The Hague. In order to compensate The Hague, they decided to plan 8 trains a day (once every 2 hours) from The Hague to Brussels. There will also be a shuttle train (= a pimped IC-trainset), which shall run just between Rotterdam and The Hague on the hours with no "highspeed" service to The Hague. As far as I know, this is still the plan.

But it shall take some years until all Fyra-trainsets (19 in total: 16 Dutch and 3 Belgian) are delivered. I guess we shouldn't expect the The Hague-service soon, as it might last another two or three years. Maybe that's why it isn't on the map of the Fyra-website...

It will take more than a year before the first Fyra-trains shall start commercial services.

But isn't that much ado about nothing? There are no high-speed tracks between The Hague and Rotterdam anyway. Unless the The Hague/Brussels service won't stop in Rotterdam, there isn't much to gain except perhaps to create the illusion of a high-speed connection between the two cities.

Slagathor · July 10th, 2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlchris

The Fyra trains have a top speed of 250km/h, but the maximum speed on tracks between Amsterdam and Rotterdam is only 160km/h

Correction: the top speed of the tracks is 300kph + 10% = 330kph.

The trains that will service the line from September 7, 2009 are the current trains providing the Benelux service. Their top speed is 160kph. Thalys will be doing 300kph on those tracks from the 2nd half of 2009 already.

The Fyra will line-up to do 250kph on those tracks from the 2nd half of 2010.

So a long wait, but it's not as dreary as you make it out to be. This is definitely a high speed railway track!

sarflonlad · July 10th, 2009, 10:49 AM

I soon hope to see London on that map...

Kaasbroodje · July 10th, 2009, 11:01 AM

What an idiots! They have forgotten to put Breda on the map, I'm going to complain about that to NS HiSpeed.

Kaasbroodje · July 10th, 2009, 11:15 AM

Look what I've found

Slagathor · July 10th, 2009, 01:32 PM

I'm fairly certain one can travel from Paris to London via Lille. NS screwing up as usual

Aerond · July 10th, 2009, 03:34 PM

How long could a train take from Madrid to Amsterdam with an all highspeed service???

sergiogiorgini · July 10th, 2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerond

How long could a train take from Madrid to Amsterdam with an all highspeed service???

I was thinking the same thing when looking at that NS Hispeed map. They will have to add the entire AVE network once the Perpignan-Barcelona link is finished. I'm not sure the entire Amsterdam-Spain distance could ever compete with airlines, but it's definitely progress to be able to cover the vast majority of that distance on high-speed lines.

Madrid to Barcelona: 2.38 hours (AVE)
Barcelona to Paris: 5.35 hours (TGV)
Paris to Amsterdam: 3.03 hours (Thalys on HSL-Zuid)

So that would add up to 11 hours and 16 minutes. I think. I'm terrible at math.

Slagathor · July 10th, 2009, 04:41 PM

11 hours, there's no way I'm doing that. Ever

Aerond · July 10th, 2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slagathor

11 hours, there's no way I'm doing that. Ever

Maybe on a night train???? -Yeah, I know that HS tracks go for works at night, but dreaming is free-. Or maybe one daily train each direction, not intended for a full Madrid-Amsterdam, but for Madrid-Perpignan, Barcelona-Disneyland and so on...

cdavies2000 · July 10th, 2009, 07:30 PM

Any one know when Thalys will start using the new HSL Zuid?

July 9th, 2009, 08:18 PM	#43
xlchris Not much Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Haarlem Posts: 11,083 Likes (Received): 49	THE NETHERLANDS \| High Speed Rail __________________ "

July 9th, 2009, 09:11 PM	#44
JoKo65 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,182 Likes (Received): 17	But the Cologne–Frankfurt service is ICE, right? __________________ L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture.

July 9th, 2009, 10:44 PM	#45
xlchris Not much Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Haarlem Posts: 11,083 Likes (Received): 49	Well, it's a map showing where NS Hispeed goes, it's not only the new Fyra train but also Thalys and ICE. The Fyra trains have a top speed of 250km/h, but the maximum speed on tracks between Amsterdam and Rotterdam is only 160km/h First services start at september 7th...finally after a few years of delay. They had to start driving in april 2007, but it got delayed and delayed. They are now going to replace the trains, the actual trains from AnsaldoBreda are going to drive on the tracks somewhere in 2010! __________________ "

July 9th, 2009, 11:29 PM	#47
sergiogiorgini Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The Hague Posts: 559 Likes (Received): 9	Just to clarify: NS Hispeed is just the Dutch Railways' (NS') division for international ticket sales in the Netherlands, and will operate the Fyra through a co-operation with KLM called the High Speed Alliance. It's basically just a lot of hoo-haw, a rebranding of a division that has existed for decades, nothing more. The interesting part is the Fyra, which will indeed serve Amsterdam, Schiphol Airport, Rotterdam, Breda, Antwerp and Brussels. It will share the HSL-Zuid/HSL 4 lines with Thalys. Everything else is plain old ICE, Thalys, TGV, Eurostar, etc... Last edited by sergiogiorgini; July 9th, 2009 at 11:35 PM.

July 10th, 2009, 12:42 AM	#49
ArthurK Legum Magister Scientiae Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Groningen, The Netherlands Posts: 1,361 Likes (Received): 1	There was a strong lobby by the city of The Hague to get an connection to the high speed network. The government decided in the early nineties that the new high speed line would run directly from Rotterdam to Schiphol, instead of following the A4-motorway via The Hague. In order to compensate The Hague, they decided to plan 8 trains a day (once every 2 hours) from The Hague to Brussels. There will also be a shuttle train (= a pimped IC-trainset), which shall run just between Rotterdam and The Hague on the hours with no "highspeed" service to The Hague. As far as I know, this is still the plan. But it shall take some years until all Fyra-trainsets (19 in total: 16 Dutch and 3 Belgian) are delivered. I guess we shouldn't expect the The Hague-service soon, as it might last another two or three years. Maybe that's why it isn't on the map of the Fyra-website... It will take more than a year before the first Fyra-trains shall start commercial services. Last edited by ArthurK; July 10th, 2009 at 01:05 AM.

November 16th, 2008, 07:06 PM	#41
33Hz Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 317 Likes (Received): 0	An update on HSL Zuid. I've been translating Dutch articles to find this, perhaps someone can check my understanding. From http://www.hslzuid.nl/hsl/Nieuws/nie...pportage.jsp#0 It seems that testing of ERTMS 2.3.0 has recently gone well and the line is now ready for 300km/h. Testing of the transitions to the rest of the Dutch network and the Belgian border crossing have also gone well. They are just waiting for finishing of the testing on the Belgian Line 4 now (which should be complete mid-December). However, testing with Traxx locos has been showing up some reliability problems and this puts in doubt the start of passenger services on the Amsterdam to Rotterdam section in mid-January. Seperately, Bombardier has said that they might not be able to deliver ERTMS level 2 on these locomotives until spring 2010. This is needed for these trains to coexist with Thalys services on the line. The planned equiping of Thalys trains for ERTMS and 300km/h running was to have taken place by May 2009, but there is a 50% chance this might slip until the end of July. Safety cases are also needed for this equipment from the Belgian, German and French railways. The source of dust in the Green Heart Tunnel has not been found, but it has been determined to be non-hazardous and not likely to cause problems with equipment. The passage of test trains seems to have diminished this dust. The Ansaldo-Breda trains should start to come available in autumn 2009, with full fleet delivered in 2010. However they will still need to be checked for ERTMS compatability. The HSA company may require assistance from public funds because of the late start to services. Have I missed anything?

November 17th, 2008, 06:48 PM	#42
Glodenox Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Zemst, BE Posts: 799	That's more or less everything indeed. Seems like you've had a good translation Greetings, Glodenox

July 9th, 2009, 11:16 PM	#46
ArthurK Legum Magister Scientiae Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Groningen, The Netherlands Posts: 1,361 Likes (Received): 1	The Fyra will just run between Amsterdam and Brussels only. When the high speed line between Amsterdam and Antwerp is completely in service and all Fyra-trainsets are delivered, the Fyra will provide the following railservices: - Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport-Rotterdam-Antwerp-Brussels (1x /hour, with the Thalys to Paris also running 1x /hour) - Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport-Rotterdam-Breda (2x /hour) - Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport-Rotterdam (2x /hour) - The Hague-Rotterdam-Breda-Noorderkempen-Antwerp-Mechelen-Brussels (1x /2 hours) The frequency between Amsterdam and Rotterdam will be 6x /hour, including Thalys-services to Paris. Edit: diagram of the frequencies a day:

July 10th, 2009, 12:10 AM	#48
sergiogiorgini Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: The Hague Posts: 559 Likes (Received): 9	I'm not sure about Fyra serving The Hague, by the way. It's not on the map on the new official website: http://www.fyra.com//index.php?page=home-en&hl=en_US Not that it would matter much, since there's no high-speed rail between Rotterdam and The Hague. You might as well just catch a regular train and switch in Rotterdam.

July 10th, 2009, 10:49 AM	#52
sarflonlad Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,134 Likes (Received): 11	I soon hope to see London on that map...

July 10th, 2009, 11:01 AM	#53
Kaasbroodje Vers van het land! Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tussen het graan en het vee Posts: 404 Likes (Received): 1	What an idiots! They have forgotten to put Breda on the map, I'm going to complain about that to NS HiSpeed. __________________ Eventually everyone will get pigeonpoo on themselfs - A very wisefull man STAD

July 10th, 2009, 11:15 AM	#54
Kaasbroodje Vers van het land! Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tussen het graan en het vee Posts: 404 Likes (Received): 1	Look what I've found __________________ Eventually everyone will get pigeonpoo on themselfs - A very wisefull man STAD

July 10th, 2009, 01:32 PM	#55
Slagathor Luctor et Emergo Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Hague Posts: 5,089 Likes (Received): 194	I'm fairly certain one can travel from Paris to London via Lille. NS screwing up as usual __________________ Eh? Fotoreportages: Middelburg, ZL \| Vlissingen, ZL

July 10th, 2009, 03:34 PM	#56
Aerond Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 52 Likes (Received): 0	How long could a train take from Madrid to Amsterdam with an all highspeed service???

July 10th, 2009, 04:41 PM	#58
Slagathor Luctor et Emergo Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Hague Posts: 5,089 Likes (Received): 194	11 hours, there's no way I'm doing that. Ever __________________ Eh? Fotoreportages: Middelburg, ZL \| Vlissingen, ZL

July 10th, 2009, 07:30 PM	#60
cdavies2000 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 36 Likes (Received): 0	Any one know when Thalys will start using the new HSL Zuid?

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