daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 17th, 2011, 01:13 AM   #581
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,793
Likes (Received): 257

Maybe convert a few VIRMs for 25kv and ERTMS? Supposedly they're prepared for such modifications already?
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old November 17th, 2011, 03:23 AM   #582
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Breda<->'s-Hertogenbosch<->Eindhoven triangle
Posts: 19,839
Likes (Received): 6523

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The quickest way to get more trains on the HSL-Zuid is to use the ICRm rolling stock. These coaches are similar to the ones already used on Fyra, yet they're used for intercity services combined with a class 1700 locomotive. Swap the locomotive for a Traxx, Prima 2 or Eurosprinter, and you're almost good to go.
What about the special ERTMS 2 protocol, for which it took ages to commission the current locos to operate under?

In any case, I think any (mis)use of HSL-Zuid should be done with a precondition that when the V250 comes into service, any limitation imposed by lower speeds of this older non-HS rolling stock will be dealt with removing them from schedule, not, ever, by slowing down the fast V250 Fyra services.
__________________
"For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, clear and wrong."
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2011, 07:04 AM   #583
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,468
Likes (Received): 129

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In any case, I think any (mis)use of HSL-Zuid should be done with a precondition that when the V250 comes into service, any limitation imposed by lower speeds of this older non-HS rolling stock will be dealt with removing them from schedule, not, ever, by slowing down the fast V250 Fyra services.
And the V250 should only be allowed if it doesn't impose limits on the 300kph Thalys services, right?

Anyway, having 200kph, 250kph and 300 kph train services on the same line is something a competent railway has no problem with.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2011, 08:38 AM   #584
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,795
Likes (Received): 180

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What about the special ERTMS 2 protocol, for which it took ages to commission the current locos to operate under?
There's no problem when it comes to that: the Traxx-locomotives are already running on the HSL-Zuid under ERTMS Level 2 supervision (yes, the entire HSL!), the Prima 2, EuroSprinter and Vectron families of locomotives already have ERTMS Level 2 hardware on board as well.

The problems with ERTMS on the HSL-Zuid on the rolling stock side are mostly related to Bombardier.
Quote:
In any case, I think any (mis)use of HSL-Zuid should be done with a precondition that when the V250 comes into service, any limitation imposed by lower speeds of this older non-HS rolling stock will be dealt with removing them from schedule, not, ever, by slowing down the fast V250 Fyra services.
While I get your point, I think it's more important to use the HSL efficiently than using it 'at 250 kph because that's what it's designed for'. Of course, once the V250 has its approval it can be used for all kinds of services using the HSL-Zuid. The current HSL-Zuid concession doesn't have to be the limiting factor.

The 2x per hour Amsterdam - Rotterdam Fyra as it's planned is pretty useless if you ask me, those trains can be used for better services.
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2011, 01:05 PM   #585
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Breda<->'s-Hertogenbosch<->Eindhoven triangle
Posts: 19,839
Likes (Received): 6523

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The 2x per hour Amsterdam - Rotterdam Fyra as it's planned is pretty useless if you ask me, those trains can be used for better services.
Why is it useless? As there will be no more NS trains (except the crappy Benelux services) on the Amsterdam-Schiphol-Leiden-Rotterdam route, only via Haarlem, it is paramount to have new frequencies connecting Rotterdam to the airport and Amsterdam! And they provide a substantial time saving of 22 minutes as well, quite significant in an otherwise 1h10 journey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
And the V250 should only be allowed if it doesn't impose limits on the 300kph Thalys services, right?

Anyway, having 200kph, 250kph and 300 kph train services on the same line is something a competent railway has no problem with.
OF course, while the railway still has ample spare capacity. Once it starts getting more used, a 120km/h speed differential over a train with VMax 300 can easily impose a buffer ahead of its departure on the order of several minutes, as the only point where faster trains can "overtake" is Rotterdam.
__________________
"For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, clear and wrong."
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2011, 02:58 PM   #586
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,795
Likes (Received): 180

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Why is it useless? As there will be no more NS trains (except the crappy Benelux services) on the Amsterdam-Schiphol-Leiden-Rotterdam route, only via Haarlem, it is paramount to have new frequencies connecting Rotterdam to the airport and Amsterdam! And they provide a substantial time saving of 22 minutes as well, quite significant in an otherwise 1h10 journey.
6 high speed trains per hour + other intercities and local services between Amsterdam and Rotterdam is just too much. If those 6 trains per hour would be the only fast trains, I would agree. But they're not.

Now if the Amsterdam - Rotterdam shuttles would continue to, for example, Roosendaal, you wouldn't hear me complain about them. They offer some additional capacity and they serve people from further away. However, just connecting Amsterdam and Rotterdam in addition to 4 other HSTs?
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2011, 07:58 PM   #587
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Breda<->'s-Hertogenbosch<->Eindhoven triangle
Posts: 19,839
Likes (Received): 6523

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
6 high speed trains per hour + other intercities and local services between Amsterdam and Rotterdam is just too much. If those 6 trains per hour would be the only fast trains, I would agree. But they're not.

Now if the Amsterdam - Rotterdam shuttles would continue to, for example, Roosendaal, you wouldn't hear me complain about them. They offer some additional capacity and they serve people from further away. However, just connecting Amsterdam and Rotterdam in addition to 4 other HSTs?
But I think people from elsewhere (Dordrecht, Hoek van Holland/Maasluis, Roosendal/Vlissingen, Riswijk, Nieuwekerk a/d Ijssel) can just connect in Rotterdam Central. It is going to be THE most awesome station in Netherlands after reconstruction works finish, and it has easy access by subway, tram and light-rail (Randstad Rail) as well.

What is wrong with a connection after all?
__________________
"For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, clear and wrong."
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2011, 04:00 PM   #588
woutero
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 291
Likes (Received): 26

I think the real news of last week was not yet posted on this forum:

The concessions for conventional rail and high speed rail will be merged in 2015 and are awarded to NS (without any form of competition or tender). NS and the state government are each taking a part of the loss that was created by the underperformance (or inflated expectations to be more precise) of the High Speed concession.

So before the system is fully operational (there are still no real High Speed Fyra trains) HSA has been bailed out, and the NS (partly responsible for the financial fiasco) is awarded use of the High Speed Line under more favorable conditions.

The new proposal includes running other high speed services on the high speed Line as well. For instance Almere - Rotterdam (via Amsterdam Zuid and Schiphol), and The Hague - Eindhoven (via Breda and Rotterdam). Also there will be trains between Breda and Antwerpen on the High Speed Line. The number of Amsterdam-Rotterdam trains will be reduced to 4 trains per hour (which seems plenty).

It is not clear where additional high speed rolling stock will come from.

More details:
NS Website (with maps)
NS info flyer (pdf with maps)
Government press release ("Minister Schultz solves financial problems of HSA")
woutero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2011, 04:28 PM   #589
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,468
Likes (Received): 129

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
OF course, while the railway still has ample spare capacity. Once it starts getting more used, a 120km/h speed differential over a train with VMax 300 can easily impose a buffer ahead of its departure on the order of several minutes, as the only point where faster trains can "overtake" is Rotterdam.
It's a pity they didn't build a station at Zoetermeer.

Anyway, the line is 63km. It's interesting to compare this with the line Brussel - Liege, of which the high speed part is 64km.
On this line Thalys runs at 300kph. ICs run at 200kph. On that route a 300kph train needs 7 minutes less than a 200kph train. So I'd guess you could run quite a few trains provided that you let the fastest trains leave first, and between a 200 kph train and a 300 kph train you put 10 minutes.

So You could have departures every 2 minutes from say 10:00 till 10:20, and again from 10:30 till 10:50, with 11 trains in each "flight", the fastest going first. Gives you 22 trains per hour. Not bad...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2011, 04:37 PM   #590
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,468
Likes (Received): 129

Quote:
Originally Posted by woutero View Post
Also there will be trains between Breda and Antwerpen on the High Speed Line.
Looking at the PDF I also see that they are investigating running to Dusseldorf via Venlo. I think that an Antwerpen - Breda - Eindhoven - Venlo - Düsseldorf train could have potential. They could even run it using conventional stock, or order a few ICx sets.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2011, 07:45 PM   #591
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Breda<->'s-Hertogenbosch<->Eindhoven triangle
Posts: 19,839
Likes (Received): 6523

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
It's a pity they didn't build a station at Zoetermeer.
That would further degrade the performance of the line, unless they built a long 4-track sector. On top of that, it would require extensive and expensive works to isolate the passing trains at up to 320 km/h from the platforms. Or else you'd just put another speed restriction meaning no train would go above 220km/h the whole line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Looking at the PDF I also see that they are investigating running to Dusseldorf via Venlo. I think that an Antwerpen - Breda - Eindhoven - Venlo - Düsseldorf train could have potential. They could even run it using conventional stock, or order a few ICx sets.
They used to have some Den Haag - Köln trains via Venlo, but they failed. I hope such service never comes to fruition, unless it uses a REAL world-class high-speed train like the ICEs, not some crappy DB regio train cars whose doors don't even have buttons to open them.
__________________
"For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, clear and wrong."
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2011, 07:50 PM   #592
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,795
Likes (Received): 180

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist

That would further degrade the performance of the line, unless they built a long 4-track sector. On top of that, it would require extensive and expensive works to isolate the passing trains at up to 320 km/h from the platforms.
You mean like they did with Antwerpen-Noorderkempen? That can be done. You can build an entire station around it, just as long as you make the building high enough so through-trains can fit through them.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2011, 06:25 AM   #593
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,468
Likes (Received): 129

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That would further degrade the performance of the line, unless they built a long 4-track sector. On top of that, it would require extensive and expensive works to isolate the passing trains at up to 320 km/h from the platforms. Or else you'd just put another speed restriction meaning no train would go above 220km/h the whole line.
Yes, this is so hard that the Japanese railways build such stations only about every 20 km or so...

No really, there are tons of examples around Europe on how to properly build a station along a high speed line. Don't pretend you are not aware of that.

Quote:
They used to have some Den Haag - Köln trains via Venlo, but they failed. I hope such service never comes to fruition, unless it uses a REAL world-class high-speed train like the ICEs, not some crappy DB regio train cars whose doors don't even have buttons to open them.
You really don't like trains, do you?
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2011, 07:48 AM   #594
Momo1435
S/mileage
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 21,603
Likes (Received): 11409

Most smaller Japanese Shinkansen stations have a 4 track layout just 2 tracks with platforms. Since the high acceleration of the Shinkansen the 4 track sections don't have to be long.

But Atami Station has only 2 platform tracks.


http://blog.goo.ne.jp/otowa_syuna


Although this section of the Tokaido Shinkansen has a speed restriction due to the tight curve the speeds are still high enough to suck you from the platform when a train passes at the max speed possible. Therefor trackdoors have been installed that only allow people on the trackside of the platform when a train is standing inside the station.

The Tokaido Shinkansen remains the High Speed Line with the highest frequencies and the highest passenger numbers, having intermediate station doesn't have a big effect on the overall performance of a line.

But in the case of Zoetermeer where there the station would be used by normal trains it could be a different story. Maybe only when trains are used that have a good acceleration, the current NS IC stock is simply not fast enough out of the starting blocks.
__________________
天まで登れ!
キタ━━━━━━━━━(。・∀・。)ノ━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2011, 11:46 AM   #595
woutero
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 291
Likes (Received): 26

For anyone interested in the performance of Fyra High Speed services, there is a twitter account dedicated to showing Fyra delays (@failra), and it also shows daily statistics about delayed and canceled trains:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/failra
Stats: http://sites.google.com/site/failrahsl/dagstatistieken
woutero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2012, 11:20 PM   #596
rodineisilveira
Registered User
 
rodineisilveira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: São Paulo - SP, Brazil
Posts: 242
Likes (Received): 35

Design by Sergio Pinninfarina

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlchris View Post
Does this belong to the HSL South?; (If not, sorry)



(These are from Be. Forum)





These trains have the Italian design developed by Sergio Pinninfarina.

rodineisilveira no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2012, 01:33 PM   #597
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Breda<->'s-Hertogenbosch<->Eindhoven triangle
Posts: 19,839
Likes (Received): 6523

Interesting video showing some details of the V250 on a test run.

Bonus: heavily Italian accent PA at the end of the video lol.

__________________
"For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, clear and wrong."
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2012, 09:46 PM   #598
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,468
Likes (Received): 129


Does that mean we can expect them in commercial service somewhere in the next decade?
(and probably be scrapped in the decade after that?)
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2012, 09:52 PM   #599
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Breda<->'s-Hertogenbosch<->Eindhoven triangle
Posts: 19,839
Likes (Received): 6523

The V250 will likely be in service for 15-18 years before being retired

They don't want to consider a retrofit of the train. Which means newer trains on HSL-Zuid within 20 years.
__________________
"For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, clear and wrong."
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2012, 08:27 AM   #600
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,468
Likes (Received): 129

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The V250 will likely be in service for 15-18 years before being retired

They don't want to consider a retrofit of the train. Which means newer trains on HSL-Zuid within 20 years.
Well, that is something to look forward too...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu