daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:33 PM   #621
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21240

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Apparently for you just don't agreeing with you it's "silly"...
Not necessarily. I can understand, notwithstanding my disagreement, if someone argues on ballastless tracks being better or worse than conventional, whether x-rays and mandatory check-in should exist for rail travel, the ideal door positioning etc.

But to argue that one seat doesn't have full window view is a secondary petty complain, like "I don't like the seat color scheme" or "I dislike the livery"
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:40 PM   #622
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

I feel claustrophobic behind blind seats (more than when I am in tunnels), and even on flat ralways with boring and repetitive landscape I watch outside the window...it's absolutely not a secondary point. If you don't care about travelling in a freight wagon that's fine, but you can't say it's a pleasure to do so.

(by the way, how many times did you travel by train this year?)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2012, 02:53 AM   #623
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21240

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
(by the way, how many times did you travel by train this year?)
6 trips I think, 4 domestic, one to Bruxelles and other to Berlin on exp account.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2012, 07:40 AM   #624
k.k.jetcar
Registered User
 
k.k.jetcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sapporo
Posts: 1,811
Likes (Received): 452

Quote:
I feel claustrophobic behind blind seats (more than when I am in tunnels), and even on flat ralways with boring and repetitive landscape I watch outside the window...it's absolutely not a secondary point. If you don't care about travelling in a freight wagon that's fine, but you can't say it's a pleasure to do so.
I often read such complaints on the British railway forums also about the pendolinos and voyager units. I wonder why the carbuilders don't configure the windows so that almost all seats have at least a partial window view, either in seat/table bay configuration or all abreast configuration. I do see that the Lyra trainset has long picture windows which are separated by rather extensive blank walls- perhaps it is a matter of maintaining carbody stiffness? There are no such problems on Japanese high speed and ltd. express stock, I would say almost all passengers have at least a partial (50% or more) window view, no matter what seat configuration (the seats are swivel mounted, to allow all abreast or bay seating).
k.k.jetcar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2012, 09:42 AM   #625
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Most train builders and railway companies simply often don't think. The best example of what is simply a matter of thinking are the Pendolino ETR 600 and ETR 610. The first were bought by Trenitalia, the second by Cisalpino, they have exactly the same lenght and capacity (~190 m, ~430 passengers) but in the ETR 600 the seats don't line up with the windows, in the ETR 610 they do. So it isn't even true, at least int his case, that lining seats and windows reduces capacity.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2012, 10:37 AM   #626
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,221
Likes (Received): 62932

The issue is not so much capacity, the problem is that most train builders only make standard products nowadays. Basically they manufacture just 1 type of a car with a fixed window configuration. They install any interior configuration based on the demands of the client in that standard car without looking if it aligns with the windows. The ETR 600/610 difference is a very good example of this reason.

The real problem is that the railway companies don't want the standard seat lay-outs of the builders and that the builders don't want to change their standard products to the demands of the customers.


Even though the V250 will probably also be a one-off train it was designed as a new high speed platform, therefor the reason above is also the case for this train.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 04:35 PM   #627
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21240

New timetable for Amsterdam-Bruxelles services from Dec. 9th

The new timetable of trains between Amsterdam and Bruxelles has been released!

Thank God, they got rid of those crappy Benelux trains!

These will now be the options for travelling between two cities

1. Thalys
Departures from Bruxelles at: 7.52, 8.52, 9.52, 11.52, 13.52, 15.52, 16.52, 18.52, 20.52

Departures from Amsterdam at: 6.19, 8.19, 9.19, 11.19, 13.19, 15.19, 17.19, 18.19, 19.19

Stops at: Bruxelles-Midi, Anvers Central (38min), Rotterdam Centraal (35min), Schiphol (21min), Amsterdam Centraal (14min)

2. Fyra
Departures from Bruxelles at: 6.18, 8.16, 10.18, 11.18, 13.18, 15.18, 16.18, 18.18, 20.18, 21.18

Departures from Amsterdam at: 5.47, 7.41, 8.41, 10.41, 12.41, 13.41, 15.41, 17.41, 18.41, 20.41

Stops at: Bruxelles-Midi, Bruxelles Central (6min), Antwerpen Centraal (34min), Rotterdam Centraal (35min), Schiphol (23min), Amsterdam Centraal (14min)

3. combination of IC + R-int. + IC
It will still be possible to travel between those cities with a combination of:

-Intercity Bruxelles-Midi - Anvers Central
-Intl. Regional Anvers Central - Roosendaal
-Intercity Roosendaal - Amsterdam

Total travel time on most of these connections is 3.36. Transfer times are 7 min in Antwerpen Centraal and 4 or 5 minutes in Roosendaal.

So despite the withdrawn of Benelux trains travelers still have a slower option of "regular non-reservable" trains. However, one might see a lot of people racing in Roosendaal station, which has extremely long platforms enough to accommodate 2 trains on each track.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 05:13 PM   #628
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21240

And these are the "leaked" base fares:

__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 09:33 PM   #629
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

There is a gain of time but a loss o frequency, it's a shame, in some cases overall it's not an improvement.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 09:44 PM   #630
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

The lower frequency is just temporary, until enough V250 trainsets are available to offer 16 trains a day.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #631
Stratosphere 2020
Registered User
 
Stratosphere 2020's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Rotterdam/Oranjestad
Posts: 7,061
Likes (Received): 4156

I agree taking the car and carpooling will be more feasible, reliable, and less stress than taking the train with these higher fares, with the train fall out that happen once and awhile. No wonder Fyra is not profitable.
__________________
You're in Rotterdam. Take a picture of the skyline now, for tomorrow it will be different!
Stratosphere 2020 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 10:19 PM   #632
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

For 3 or more passengers taking a car (assuming you already have one) is cheaper pretty much anywhere. I don't see how it's faster or less stressful (traffic jams, parking etc), though.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 10:24 PM   #633
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21240

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
There is a gain of time but a loss o frequency, it's a shame, in some cases overall it's not an improvement.
My reasoning is like this...

Older situation: Amsterdam-Bruxelles travel time 3h19min
New situation: Amstrerdam-Bruxelles travel time 2h8min

When you cut travel time by 69 minutes, even theoretically cutting service frequency to 1 every 2 hours would STILL result in faster total travel time for an hypothetical passenger that arrived at the station right before an 1 every hour (slower) train departed, because new train services are faster than the maximum possible additional waiting time.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 11:15 PM   #634
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Suppose you want to go shopping in Antwerp on a saturday along with a friend. However, since you both live in Amsterdam it will be a long trip. As both you and your friend are students, you don't have much money to spare and are looking for the most cost efficient way to travel. As you're planning this trip 5 days in advance ("Hey, let's go shopping this weekend!") you are already too late to book the "supersaver" ticket.

Luckily for you, there are several tariffs to suit your need. You decide to take a look at the train again, and you discover that for you, the next available option is the "Weekend Semi Flex" ticket. Since your friend is 24, she can still travel on a "Youth" ticket.

With Fyra, this would mean purchasing these tickets:
- 2x Amsterdam - Antwerp "Weekend Semi Flex" € 36 x2 = € 72
- 2x Amsterdam - Antwerp "Youth" € 28 x 2 = € 56

Total: € 128. Just to get from Amsterdam to Antwerp and back. Also, these tickets are bound to specific trains and there are limitations when you want to cancel or postpone your trip. The "supersaver" tickets don't even let you do this.

Now imagine this: you are in Antwerp, ready to leave. In fact, you're already on your way to the railway station, planning to arrive 10 minutes prior to train departure. Unfortunately, due to an accident involving a motorcycle and an elderly woman, the Belgian police stops you and your friend to ask some question.

When you finally arrive at the platform, you only see the tail lights of the train that you had booked. For you, this won't be a problem as the "Weekend Semi Flex" ticket allows you to take the next Fyra train - you just no longer have a reserved seat. But... the "Youth" ticket that your friend is carrying does not have this flexibility.

Your friend would have to purchase a new ticket on the spot, invalidating her old ticket, which would add an additional € 48 onto the bill (as she would have to purchase a "Full Flex" ticket). The expenses that your friend has to make to get from Amsterdam to Antwerp and back has just gone up to € 104.

Sure, Fyra is fast. Getting from Amsterdam to Antwerp is just 1h23. Add a few minutes to get from the station to the start of the shopping area: 1h30. But it's expensive.

Taking this into account, the alternative options becomes much more attractive for quite a lot of passengers:

Code:
Amsterdam - Breda: 1h07
Transfer: 20 minutes
Breda - Antwerp by bus: 45 minutes
Walk from bus stop (Noorderplaats) to city centre: 20 minutes
Total travel time: 2h32.
Price: € 29,40 (Fyra return ticket with 40% discount) + € 12,50 (Veolia bus return ticket) = € 41,90

For just € 41,90 a person (€ 83,80 for two) you can get from Amsterdam to Antwerp, without the hassle of pre-purchasing tickets (as they're all fixed fee), without the worries of making it on time to your train, and at a price that's much lower. Yes, the travel takes longer and you might have to carry some heavy bags as you walk to the bus stop - but the price is 1/3rd or even half of Fyra ticket prices!

Do you still think that yield management, compulsory reservation and ticket differentiation is a good idea on such a short distance... even when the alternative (which is much more attractive, financially!) is already operational?

Please note that I am not even considering taking the local service over Roosendaal: it will take longer (2h39 to get from Amsterdam to Antwerp, 2h45 to get to city centre) and will be more expensive as some of the interesting tariffs will disappear when Fyra takes over.
__________________
We are shaping the future

Last edited by AlexNL; October 16th, 2012 at 11:23 PM.
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 11:30 PM   #635
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21240

They could still travel via Roosendaal.

Moreover, your calculation assumed the travelers held an off-peak discount card, which have costs (or is given to students as accessory benefit).

It would be like comparing travelling to Germany with fares for Bahncard 50 holders....

There are even cheaper Eurolines buses from Amsterdam to Bruxelles.

The issue of "high" fares also affects, theoretically, travel between Netherlands and Koln/Dusseldorf/Frankfurt. You can pay as little as € 19 buying in advance or triple that for a last-minute ticket Arnhem-Duisburg alone... and it doesn't seem there is travel chaos between the Betuwe region and the Rhür region.

================

I think HSA needs to jack up prices to pay for their franchise costs! The only way to reduce fares would be for the Dutch government to lower fees charged to HSA, but than it would be facing challenge from the bidders that lost the contract back then when HSA bid insanely high to get the rights to operate trains on HSL Zuid/4.

If they had overall lower fares, yield management could still be helpful. People adapt to different travel cost patterns, such as the wild variations of airfare. Despite being close to Netherlands, people just don't expect to "turn up at Schiphol and go" on a 43min flight to London Heathrow.

Compulsory reservation also ensures no one travels standing. Which is why Fyra should have compulsory reservation like Thalys. Thalys is expensive, but you KNOW you are not going to travel 4.10 standing between Gare du Nord and Ams. CEntraal
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Last edited by Suburbanist; October 16th, 2012 at 11:38 PM.
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 11:34 PM   #636
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Yes, but the difference is minimal, so with higher fares a faster but less frequent service is in some cases not an improvement (you pay more for the same kind of service).

That's what happened to me today: I used a train for a 60 minutes trip, but as the service is two-hourly, I had to wait 60 minutes in the station. When services on that railway lasted 90 minutes they were hourly, so the 30' gain of the new (dis)service is lost in waiting a train (by the way, it was a Milano-Lugano trip on an ex-Cisalpino service, so that involved also a 30' delay, a transshipment in Chiasso and traveling sitting on the floor on the second train because of overcrowding...).

Note that I'm not saying that cutting an hour is useless for everybody, especially as AlexNL said frequency of the Fyra trains will be increased.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 11:41 PM   #637
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21240

60 min waiting at station + 60 min actual vehicle movement is better than 120 min on transit.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 11:44 PM   #638
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21240

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post

Note that I'm not saying that cutting an hour is useless for everybody, especially as AlexNL said frequency of the Fyra trains will be increased.

I think Thalys might enter the competition as well. But I'm not entirely sure: sometimes I play with fare finders on NS-Hispeed website and I find that, not so rarely, an Amsterdam-Paris ticket is cheaper than an Amsterdam-Bruxelles ticket on the same Thalys train, sometimes by more than € 10, thus being an attractive proposition to buy a ticket to Paris for -say - € 35, disembark in Bruxelles and save money related to Fyra and Thalys (to Bruxelles only) ticket.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2012, 11:48 PM   #639
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
They could still travel via Roosendaal.
Of course they could, but as I already indicated this would take even longer than changing for a bus in Breda - and it will be more expensive as several tariffs (such as the Superdagretour, a one-day only return ticket) will disappear when Fyra starts to operate.
Quote:
Moreover, your calculation assumed the travelers held an off-peak discount card, which have costs (or is given to students as accessory benefit).
Once again, you are right. As both people in my story are students they have the student benefit card. But even if they wouldn't, the price would go up only slightly.

From € 29,40 to € 44,00 for a day return Amsterdam - Breda with Fyra. This means adding € 14,60 to the price each traveller has to pay. Even then, taking the bus will be much cheaper.

Quote:
It would be like comparing travelling to Germany with fares for Bahncard 50 holders....
It was only an example. As there are hundreds of thousands of people holding a discount pass, and as there are thousands of students who are entitled to one, it's very likely that at least one of the people travelling holds such a pass - and this pass entitles others to travel with 40% off as well.
Quote:
There are even cheaper Eurolines buses from Amsterdam to Bruxelles.
Of course there are, just as there are € 25 Fyra tickets. These Eurolines buses have the same disadvantages as Fyra: they require you to book in advance and you are bound to departure times of the bus. If you miss your bus you will have to buy a new ticket.
Quote:
The issue of "high" fares also affects, theoretically, travel between Netherlands and Koln/Dusseldorf/Frankfurt. You can pay as little as € 19 buying in advance or triple that for a last-minute ticket Arnhem-Duisburg alone... and it doesn't seem there is travel chaos between the Betuwe region and the Rhür region.
What travel between the Betuwe and the Rhür? There is no travel as the only connection takes you from Arnhem to friggin' Oberhausen, bypassing all those places inbetween (such as Emmerich and Wesel) that would benefit greatly from a direct connection.

To make a comparison for travel times: going from Schiphol straight to Antwerp, completely skipping Rotterdam and the surrounding area, ignoring hundreds of thousands of potential customers.

I agree with you that on long distances, people may benefit from yield management-esque systems. It allows operators to sell seats, beds, rooms, etc at the best price. But a train like Fyra isn't well-suit for such a scheme. The distances between stops don't allow it.

Yield management on Amsterdam - Paris is possible because the main competitor is the airplane where similar systems are in place. Yield management on Utrecht - Basel works because the main competitor is the plane. Yield management on London - Glasgow works because, once again, the main competitor is the plane.

Yield management doesn't work on short distances as you're competing against something which has a fixed price: the car. Sure, fuel prices are going up every week, yet it's little by little. Ownership costs of the car are pretty much fixed given some routine maintenance. Parking fees are pretty much fixed, while the car does have several major advantages over the train. Such as full flexibility at a steady price.

I firmly believe that if your main competitor is the car, your product is doomed to fail if you apply yield management techniques to maximize your revenue.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2012, 06:35 AM   #640
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
-Intercity Bruxelles-Midi - Anvers Central
-Intl. Regional Anvers Central - Roosendaal
-Intercity Roosendaal - Amsterdam
You now there is no such station called "Anvers central"?
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium