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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:00 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I arrived in the country in 2009, I just remember having read something about "a Bruxelles-Anvers-Amsterdam line"

Doubt they would have put "Anvers" on the train. More likely Antwerp or Antwerpen.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 06:21 AM   #702
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btw, it's very clear that you haven't followed the whole HSL Zuid project from the start, if you had you would have understood better why people are so critical. Basically everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong. It has been a continuing chain of mistake after mistake. If everything would have completed and in operation in 2007 (it was already delayed by several years back then) people wouldn't have been as critical as they are now.
The whole line was a mistake. A better use of the money would have been:

Quadrupling Amsterdam - Breda (Delft could have had here tunnel already), and only a new line Breda - Antwerpen.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 06:22 AM   #703
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I arrived in the country in 2009, I just remember having read something about "a Bruxelles-Anvers-Amsterdam line" and not really knowing much about it before 2008 when I started reading SSC.
Why do you keep calling it "Anvers"? That is either gross ignorance, or just deliberate trolling.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 08:19 AM   #704
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Why do you keep calling it "Anvers"? That is either gross ignorance, or just deliberate trolling.
Maybe his native language is French?
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Old December 19th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The whole line was a mistake. A better use of the money would have been:

Quadrupling Amsterdam - Breda (Delft could have had here tunnel already), and only a new line Breda - Antwerpen.
The new line is pretty useful.

There is no physical space to quadruple the old line, it would require extensive property takeover (and I'm not talking mostly of farms like it was the case with the Amsterdam-Utrecht quadrupling), by any means a long tunnel in Dordrecht moving the station underground etc. Widening tracks in Leiden would also be extremely costly, likely requiring extensive tunneling as well. If you start adding up these costs, the new Rotterdam-Hooffdorp line looks a lot more attractive.

Let's not forget the new line between Rotterdam and Hooffdorp is 40% shorter than the old route via Den Haag.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 02:44 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The whole line was a mistake. A better use of the money would have been:

Quadrupling Amsterdam - Breda (Delft could have had here tunnel already), and only a new line Breda - Antwerpen.
Which would have meant that a trip from Schiphol to Rotterdam would still take almost an hour. There is no benefit in that.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #707
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The new line is pretty useful.

There is no physical space to quadruple the old line, it would require extensive property takeover (and I'm not talking mostly of farms like it was the case with the Amsterdam-Utrecht quadrupling), by any means a long tunnel in Dordrecht moving the station underground etc. Widening tracks in Leiden would also be extremely costly, likely requiring extensive tunneling as well. If you start adding up these costs, the new Rotterdam-Hooffdorp line looks a lot more attractive.
Have you actually travelled by train on that route recently?
The route from Leiden to Dordrecht is already 4 tracks, with the exception of the passage through Delft, but that is being done right now.
From Lage Zwaluwe to Breda the new line runs parallel to the old one. So there there was obviously physical space also. It's only Dordrecht - Lage Zwaluwe that isn't four tracks right now. Quadrupling Hoofdorp - Leiden would have been easy too. That area is mostly empty.
In fact, the Dutch have mostly taken good care of making sure that place exists along their transportation corridors for expansion.

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Let's not forget the new line between Rotterdam and Hooffdorp is 40% shorter than the old route via Den Haag.
But lets also not forget that a lot of money now was spent, that can no longer be spent elsewhere. This money could have been spent on expanding schedules.
Now the Netherlands has an expensive, underperforming high speed line, but the plan for a high frequence main network has been shelved...
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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:04 PM   #708
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Now the Netherlands has an expensive, underperforming high speed line, but the plan for a high frequence main network has been shelved...
No, they haven't. Secretary of State Wilma Mansveld (Infrastructure and Environment) announced a few days ago that the high frequency programme (PHS) will continue
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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:05 PM   #709
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Which would have meant that a trip from Schiphol to Rotterdam would still take almost an hour. There is no benefit in that.
Not if the line would have been upgraded to allow 200kph running (which would have been possible). That would have given tremendous benefit at a moderate cost. It's only about 80 km along the old line from Rotterdam to Schiphol. You would only need an average speed of 160kph to do this in 30 minutes.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:07 PM   #710
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No, they haven't. Secretary of State Wilma Mansveld (Infrastructure and Environment) announced a few days ago that the high frequency programme (PHS) will continue
That's good news. I thought it had been put on the backburner.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:08 PM   #711
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Thalys completes the Schiphol-Rotterdam (closing doors to opening doors) trip in a mere 19 minutes.

Moreover, the construction a new line allowed the ICs on the old route to get more stops. Which wasn't the case when you had trains needing a clear path with fewer stops to Rotterdam.

Now, for instance, most ICs stop in Schiedam, Den Haag lan van N.O.I and Leiden. Which wasn't the case before.

The "Rotterdam-Breda" high speed line is essentially a Dordrecht bypass + new track to the Breda junction. And there is real time gain to be made there, especially for Thalys trains (and now Fyra)
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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:12 PM   #712
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Thalys completes the Schiphol-Rotterdam (closing doors to opening doors) in a mere 19 minutes.
And how fast is it on Den Haag - Schiphol?
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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #713
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And how fast is it on Den Haag - Schiphol?
28 minutes the faster services I think. But that is because there are no longer trains that don't stop in Leiden Cs.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #714
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Now the Netherlands has an expensive, underperforming high speed line, but the plan for a high frequence main network has been shelved...
Wrong, HSL Zuid isn't under-performing. In fact it works perfectly fine just as it was intended to do. Thalys services run fast and reliable on it. The only under-performer is Ansaldo-Breda which fails to deliver the ordered rolling stock.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Not if the line would have been upgraded to allow 200kph running (which would have been possible). That would have given tremendous benefit at a moderate cost. It's only about 80 km along the old line from Rotterdam to Schiphol. You would only need an average speed of 160kph to do this in 30 minutes.
As if it were more efficient to quadruple a longer line through densely developed urban and suburban areas and enhanced its top speed. It just isn't. The vast benefits of a new almost straight line simply outweigh the drawback of high initial costs.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 09:20 PM   #715
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I think the line itself is just fine, if only a functioning rolling stock was delivered on time... The Netherlands is wealthy enough to afford both this line as well as improving the standard network. The infrastructure will last much longer than memories about how much exactly it cost.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 09:41 PM   #716
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I think the line itself is just fine, if only a functioning rolling stock was delivered on time... The Netherlands is wealthy enough to afford both this line as well as improving the standard network. The infrastructure will last much longer than memories about how much exactly it cost.
Agreed.


The only problem I have with this line is the weird need to connect with Breda at such a weird location for a high speed train, making any trip that also stops at Breda lose all it's time saving potential.

Especially the planned The Hague-Brussels train, between two major centers of European and World politics/law, which probably won't be happening now, was planned to stop at Breda. I wouldn't be against a regular stop at Breda on this line, but it would have to be at a station along the line, not far removed from it, requiring the train to turn around
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Old December 20th, 2012, 12:39 PM   #717
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Wrong, HSL Zuid isn't under-performing. In fact it works perfectly fine just as it was intended to do. Thalys services run fast and reliable on it. The only under-performer is Ansaldo-Breda which fails to deliver the ordered rolling stock.
When is the line going to carry 8 trains per hour in each direction?


Quote:
As if it were more efficient to quadruple a longer line through densely developed urban and suburban areas and enhanced its top speed. It just isn't. The vast benefits of a new almost straight line simply outweigh the drawback of high initial costs.
The new line isn't "almost straight". And quite a bit of it is parallel to existing lines in urban areas... Have you actually looked at the route south of Rotterdam for example?
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Old December 20th, 2012, 03:49 PM   #718
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The route over Breda was chosen by the Dutch government to minimize the impact on the horizon. The Belgians preferred the route over Roosendaal.

The Dutch state paid for the price difference in building a high speed route over Breda and along the E19 to Antwerp.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #719
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When is the line going to carry 8 trains per hour in each direction?
There will be 6 trains per hour between Rotterdam and Schiphol when all the trains are delivered. Let's just say that there will be room for improvement when the new line will be fully integrated into the national network.


Btw, there's enough traffic for 4 tracks between Rotterdam and Amsterdam next to the HSL. Although between Leiden and Amsterdam you should count both routes, so there's no real need for a quadrupling of Leiden - Hoofddorp. Between Leiden and Hoofddorp the Thalys was already able to run at 160 km/h, it's a bit unfortunate that this upgrade of the ATB was rejected by Brussel because of administrative reasons. Now only a full roll-out of the ERTMS could increase the speeds of the The Hague - Amsterdam trains.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 09:45 PM   #720
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ATB is outdated and improving it would lock-in Netherlands on 160 km/h territory for another 30 years.

We should get rid of ATB in favor of ERTMS
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