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Old January 24th, 2013, 01:04 AM   #821
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Quote:
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Therefore, I think NS Group has seized control of their daughter company.
Indeed, that happened. I forgot the name of the female director taking care of the Fyra dossier now.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 07:11 AM   #822
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That would be a lunatic overreaction. Mind you there is nothing wrong with the railway line itself. It is just the rolling stock of one rather dubious manufacturer which causes some trouble.Thalys services for instance are running perfectly fine on this line.
Exactly. The line was not built and is not suitable for commuter services.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 08:51 AM   #823
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@ M-NL, yeah but, whilst all trains have teething problems (even the Hitachi trains for HS1 did - they needed their bushes replacing as they suffered hunting, even on the new HS1 track), but thats does not excuse Ansaldo Breda in the slightest. Teething problems in other companies' products get fixed. So where's the comparison?
No it doesn't. My example only shows that Siemens curently has a ton of problems with delivering the Velaro D, most of them software related. The first set was supposed to be delivered 1.5 years ago, but Siemens has delayed delivery again. That makes it simillar to AnsaldoBreda with the V250, despite Siemens having tons more experience with buidling HSTs.

I do wonder however why Siemens refused to offer trains during this tender. What special customisations did NS ask for that Siemens didn't or wouldn't want to comply with?

What surprises me every time is that NS has the worst track record when it comes to acquiring new stock. With pretty much any model they ordered over the last 30 years the NS specific customisations caused trouble to some degree. A simple clause in the tender like 'must be built using 'proven in use' technology' would have been enough to prevent this debacle.

I did however come up with an idea: Every year all big car manufacturers head to the north of Sweden to test their cars in artic conditions. If they were to create a, preferably high speed, test track like Velim somewhere near Kiruna you have at least 4 months a year to test trains under real world arctic conditions.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 10:45 AM   #824
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Does VIRM EMUs have had any major problem? What about the GTWs? (That the latter don't have restrooms is a merely design choice - by NS!!! -, no a project flaw on part of the manufacturer)
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Old January 24th, 2013, 12:30 PM   #825
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VIRM had problems when they entered service (back then being called DD-IRM). GTW (which NS doesn't have any of) also had troubles but nowadays are very reliable. The same can be said for SLT.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 12:47 PM   #826
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I do wonder however why Siemens refused to offer trains during this tender. What special customisations did NS ask for that Siemens didn't or wouldn't want to comply with?
250kph trains were a bit odd then. Now it is different. There's a TSI spec for trains up to 249 kph, and Siemens, Alstom, CAF and now even Stadler all have designs available.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #827
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I think HSL can run up to 280 km/h, not only 250km/h. Doesn't Thalys reach 290km/h near Breda when it is delayed?
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Old January 24th, 2013, 01:02 PM   #828
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The HSL was built for 300km/h with the mandatory 10% safety margin so strictly speaking you could safely run 330km/h on it.

As far as I know Thalys does 300km/h if the normal schedule applies (ie. there are no broken Fyra trains blocking the way).
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Old January 24th, 2013, 02:03 PM   #829
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The choice for 250 km/h was simple economics: Why spend about 50% more power to reach 300 km/h within a reasonable distance, which given the lengths of the HSL-Zuid and HSL-4 will only shorten journey times by one or two minutes at best?

Alstom could have gone the same route as the ICE2: A TGV with a single powercar on one end and a driving trailer on the other would have been sufficient to reach 250 km/h. The powertrain is the most expensive part of the train.
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Old January 25th, 2013, 01:09 AM   #830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post

I did however come up with an idea: Every year all big car manufacturers head to the north of Sweden to test their cars in artic conditions. If they were to create a, preferably high speed, test track like Velim somewhere near Kiruna you have at least 4 months a year to test trains under real world arctic conditions.
Funny thing was, I thought the exact same thing..
The same question kept popping up on the dutch-spoken pages; 'did the train get tested during winter weather conditions?'
The only answer I read: "it was tested in the climate chamber in Velim, CZ republique"

Which probably means: 'It did not actually run during conditions with snow or ice on track or train'

If such A testtrack (and A 2nd one for dry/hot condition testing as well) would be built it should be made certain that the trains stay parked outside buildings/covered areas to insure the equipement is tested thoroughly.
Such tracks should be able to simulate almost any condition, so these tracks need to be extensive.
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Old January 25th, 2013, 01:11 AM   #831
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The climate chamber is in Vienna. The test track is in Velím, I believe that the V250 underwent tests during winter as well.

As far as I know, Spain is planning on building a test track for high speed trains.
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Old January 25th, 2013, 01:48 AM   #832
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Quote:
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The climate chamber is in Vienna. The test track is in Velím
,
My bad, forgot there's 2 different testlocations in centre of Europe.
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I believe that the V250 underwent tests during winter as well.
With snow & ice on track?

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As far as I know, Spain is planning on building a test track for high speed trains.
Oké, great. Where exactly?
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Old January 25th, 2013, 09:10 AM   #833
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,

With snow & ice on track?
I am not sure about that
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Oké, great. Where exactly?
It was planned near Antequera, but the Spanish central court has put a temporary halt to those plans...
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Old January 26th, 2013, 11:59 AM   #834
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Perhaps interesting to post here, the damaged underside of the Fyra trains.




This is what it is supposed to look like:
image hosted on flickr
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Old January 27th, 2013, 03:39 PM   #835
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Old January 27th, 2013, 04:33 PM   #836
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Looks much like underside of Hundai Rotem HRCS2 that resulted in being to be totally incapable of operating during ukrainian winter - http://zdsim.com/forum/index.php?s=&...dpost&p=118057
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Old January 31st, 2013, 01:35 PM   #837
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Some interesting reading: 'Fyra-treinen voldoen niet aan aanbestedingseisen/.

In short: The tender required a travel time Amsterdam-Brussels in 93 minutes (and Amsterdam-Paris in 183 minutes). According to the managing director of Veolia this can only be achieved by using 300 km/h trains. This statement is backed by the fact that the 250 km/h V250 needs 121 minutes for the Amsterdam-Brussels run.

This basically means that Fyra cannot meet the tender requirements. In fact: they originally planned to use 220 km/h trains, but were reprimanded by the minister of transport that that wouldn't be fast enough to achieve the required travel time. Why she then accepted the still to slow 250 km/h trains is the big question. I suspect the Dutch and Belgian governments didn't complain about that, because they are the biggest shareholders in both the track and the rail companies.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 02:37 PM   #838
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Back in 2001, when the HSL-Zuid was tendered, the government assumed that Belgium would build a high speed rail link between Antwerp and Brussels. In 2004 it was known that the Belgians would not do that, thus lengthening the trip from Antwerp to Brussels by several minutes. HSA was compensated for that.

The trip duration of Fyra as it started in december 2012 is not the final time it would take. The train has been scheduled for 160 kph from Schiphol to Rotterdam, then also making a long stop in Rotterdam. This is for timetabling and cadencing reasons. Once all V250 trains are in service the timetable will be revised, journey times and stops at stations will be shortened by then.

Given the reputation of Fyra trains I expect this to happen somewhere around 2017.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 06:05 PM   #839
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What about the new rail line Malines-Schaerbeek? Doesn't it shorten the total travel time between Amsterdam Centraal and Bruxelles-Midi?



They should also build some new all-underground rail track between Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid, and terminate high-speed trains there (where it would integrate with the new Metro line Noordzuid)
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Old January 31st, 2013, 07:51 PM   #840
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What about the new rail line Malines-Schaerbeek? Doesn't it shorten the total travel time between Amsterdam Centraal and Bruxelles-Midi?
You mean the new Mechelen - Brussel line? Thalys already uses that, and Fyra is supposed to soon too... But the problem is space in the easternmost part of the NZV.

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They should also build some new all-underground rail track between Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid, and terminate high-speed trains there (where it would integrate with the new Metro line Noordzuid)
They don't need new tracks for that. What is needed is a new station first.
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