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Old January 31st, 2013, 09:04 PM   #841
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They need 2 extra tracks all the way from Hooffdorp, 2 or 3 extra platforms in Schiphol, and 2 extra tacks until that junction with the lines to Weesp and Sloterdijk
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Old January 31st, 2013, 11:08 PM   #842
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It is fun to read some comment of politicians who don't get a clue about how things work.

For instance, talking of putting a common train to run on HSL-4 as if it were like sending an old bus on a new highway.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 12:49 AM   #843
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What about the new rail line Malines-Schaerbeek? Doesn't it shorten the total travel time between Amsterdam Centraal and Bruxelles-Midi?
The new line 25N is already used by Thalys trains. It shortens the trip by a few minutes. The plan is for Fyra to use that route as well, but:
- There's a shortage of available train paths in the NZV at Brussels
- There's some technical incompatability between the V250 and the safety system on line 25N.

Quote:
They should also build some new all-underground rail track between Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid, and terminate high-speed trains there (where it would integrate with the new Metro line Noordzuid)
I don't think extra tracks are needed for Hoofddorp to Schiphol, but rethinking the placement of signals might be enough to increase capacity. Construction work is in progress to upgrade Schiphol - Duivendrecht to 4 tracks. Also, infrastructure changes (building a 'double fork') at Riekerpolder Aansluiting will increase capacity as it will reduce the number of crossing movements.

Furthermore, the HSL-Zuid concession already gives NS the possibility to send HSTs to Amsterdam Zuid and terminate there.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 08:40 AM   #844
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The trip duration of Fyra as it started in december 2012 is not the final time it would take. The train has been scheduled for 160 kph from Schiphol to Rotterdam, then also making a long stop in Rotterdam.

Given the reputation of Fyra trains I expect this to happen somewhere around 2017.
I can understand that the 93 minutes cannot be achieved when the 44 km between Antwerp and Brussels are travelled at 160 km/h instead of 300 km/h. You can allow extra travel time for that.

But I find it very unfair to the other applicants that Fyra was allowed to use 250 km/h trains instead of the 300 km/h trains required by the original tender. Also I suspect a ICE3, Thalys or AGV will reach 250 km/h quicker then a V250 does because their about 1.5 times higher power ratings also means better acceleration at speed.

Fyra was able to offer such a high price because contrary to their competition they intended to use slower, and therefore much cheaper, trains from the start and knew they would get the slack to do so. But like I mentioned: Fyra is owned by the Dutch state, therefore had to win the tender and was given an unfair advantage after the tender was awarded.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 10:24 AM   #845
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But like I mentioned: Fyra is owned by the Dutch state, therefore had to win the tender and was given an unfair advantage after the tender was awarded.
You are correct about that. This was proven once again when minister Schultz decided to integrate the HSL-Zuid into the rest of the railway network and give it once again to NS, despite their piss-poor performance on the line.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 01:11 PM   #846
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You mean the new Mechelen - Brussel line? Thalys already uses that, and Fyra is supposed to soon too... But the problem is space in the easternmost part of the NZV.
'Xcuse me, but with the current track layout at the North of Brussels, the
line 25N feeds into the tracks 1 and 2 of the NZV, i.e. westernmost, not
eastern. The goal is indeed to concentrate all international & high speed
traffic on those two tracks, but this objective is still years ahead. Still
lots of works to finish south of Brussels, and also the Mechelen by-pass
which must still be started.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 07:51 PM   #847
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'Xcuse me, but with the current track layout at the North of Brussels, the
line 25N feeds into the tracks 1 and 2 of the NZV, i.e. westernmost, not
eastern.
You are correct. I was thinking about the tracks leading to the HST tracks in Zuid, but got East and West confused.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 02:38 AM   #848
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Temporary solution for Fyra woes

A temporary scheme has been announced to replacement trains.

There will be some timetable tweaking and 8 regular crappy 3rd World trains will run daily between Den Haag HS and Bruxelles Midi. They will be timed to offer a fast connection from passengers using domestic Fyra from Amsterdam.

These 8 daily train will remain until Fyra intl. can be restored to service. But I'm very worried SNCB will use this as an excuse for not running the Den Haag HS - Bruxelles Fyra at all , limiting itself to running a Breda-Anvers shuttle (and the Fyra to Amsterdam)

A scheme from NS


Last edited by Suburbanist; February 4th, 2013 at 02:57 AM.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 07:15 AM   #849
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There will be some timetable tweaking and 8 regular crappy 3rd World trains will run daily between Den Haag HS and Bruxelles Midi. They will be timed to offer a fast connection from passengers using domestic Fyra from Amsterdam.
It's better than nothing. I wonder if they'll present Ansaldobreda with the bill.

Quote:
These 8 daily train will remain until Fyra intl. can be restored to service. But I'm very worried SNCB will use this as an excuse for not running the Den Haag HS - Bruxelles Fyra at all , limiting itself to running a Breda-Anvers shuttle (and the Fyra to Amsterdam)
NS and NMBS have already agreed not to run a Den Haag - Brussel Fyra. The Antwerpen Breda service will hopefully materialise, but probably not with V250. I don't think these sets will ever return to commercial service.

(And btw. why do you persist in calling Antwerpen by it's French name? We are discussing in English here, and you live in the Netherlands, so should be familiar with the correct local name. So logically you'd either use "Antwerp" or "Antwerpen". Using the French naming of Flemish town by non French speakers is generally considered a grave insult.)
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Old February 4th, 2013, 08:42 AM   #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is fun to read some comment of politicians who don't get a clue about how things work.

For instance, talking of putting a common train to run on HSL-4 as if it were like sending an old bus on a new highway.
I agree. (At least in the Netherlands) A lot of politicians are specialised in some field, for instance transport. Those people do not need to know the technical details, but the big picture with AC/DC, the coexistince of multiple security systems and what you can and can't do with them should be within the grasp of even the most extreme alfa available.

But I still do not understand why it is so difficult to replace the paths the V250 would have used by a HLE 28 with carriages. Both the HSL-Zuid and HSL-4 aren't used that intensive that that would cause a problem. The only thing I can think of is that the HLE 28 is limited to 140 km/h in Belgium.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 08:49 AM   #851
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The reason for this is software homologation. The red Traxx locomotives used by NS Hispeed are equipped with "SW7", a software revision which contains several bug fixes. However, SW7 hasn't been tested and approved for operations in Belgium. The HLE 28 Traxx locomotives are equipped with SW6, which is fine for use in Belgium and The Netherland, but not on the HSL-Zuid or the Betuweroute.

Having SW7 homologated in Belgium would solve the problems once and for all, but SNCB is unwilling to do that. This is for political (brand image) and cost reasons (train paths for 160 kph are more expensive than for 250 kph).
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Old February 4th, 2013, 01:43 PM   #852
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Having SW7 homologated in Belgium would solve the problems once and for all, but SNCB is unwilling to do that. This is for political (brand image) and cost reasons (train paths for 160 kph are more expensive than for 250 kph).
You don't need to upgrade them all. And while you're at it, change the bogies for a P160 MS that will do 200 km/h and use some former German IC carriages of which there are plenty around. Oh wait, the P160 MS model isn't homologated for BE and NL yet (neither is the 230 km/h ES64U4, despite having been used to test HSL-Zuid), so scratch that idea.

What parameters determine the cost of a path? Axle-load and/or time spent on the line? Time spent can't be that important, because the NMBS wouldn't run Desiros over HSL-4 at 160 km/h if it was.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 03:29 PM   #853
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Now there are people demanding the end of all Fyra supplements. Which is something I don't get: the domestic Fyra is operating relatively smoothly, the infrastructure is fine, and the supplements are already low (I doubt they will ever raise them back to the € 6,90 they originally planned to charge for a Breda-Amsterdam C. trip).
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Old February 4th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #854
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The time spent to get from A to B is what Infrabel uses to determine the price for a train path. The Noorderkempen shuttle is heavily subsidised by the Belgian state which compensates the higher train path price.

Infrabel isn't the only IM that charges based on train speed, Eurotunnel does the same. Train paths in the Chunnel are assigned based on a train speed of 120 kph. As a Eurostar train travels at 160 kph, it would require 2 paths. This is why Eurostar coordinates tunnel passages, sending two Eurostar trains short behind each other through the tunnel so they require 3 paths and not 4.
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Old February 15th, 2013, 03:10 AM   #855
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Forumer TGV posted a lot of graphs of operational performance of Thalys and domestic Fyra trains.

I'm quoting this one

Quote:
Red = Domestic Fyra speed
Brown = Thalys speed

Grey = Thalys cumulative travel time
Blue = Domestic Fyra cumulative travel time
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Old February 15th, 2013, 01:19 PM   #856
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Forumer TGV posted a lot of graphs of operational performance of Thalys and domestic Fyra trains.
Interesting. So on Schiphol - Rotterdam the lower speed (160 kph!)of the domestic Fyra only means a loss of 4 minutes. So it shows again that speed isn't everything... A 200kph train would be a good solution for both domestic and Benelux services on the HSL Zuid.
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Old February 15th, 2013, 02:23 PM   #857
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Interesting. So on Schiphol - Rotterdam the lower speed (160 kph!)of the domestic Fyra only means a loss of 4 minutes. So it shows again that speed isn't everything... A 200kph train would be a good solution for both domestic and Benelux services on the HSL Zuid.
The loss on arrival is 7 minutes. It becomes just 4 minutes (on this situation) because Thalys has a longer station dwelling time.
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Old February 15th, 2013, 02:53 PM   #858
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The loss on arrival is 7 minutes. It becomes just 4 minutes (on this situation) because Thalys has a longer station dwelling time.
But much of the loss on arrival in Rotterdam is due to the fact that the Fyra came to a complete stop at the DC/AC changeover. This was probably unplanned. Without this stop the difference would only have been about 3 minutes.

Quote:
It becomes just 4 minutes (on this situation) because Thalys has a longer station dwelling time.
that is because a TGV is not optimised for short dwelling times... Again proving that for the speed of the system the top speed of the vehicle is not the only parameter. And for networks with relatively short distances top speed becomes even less important compared to for example acceleration and dwell times.
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Old February 16th, 2013, 01:06 AM   #859
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that is because a TGV is not optimised for short dwelling times... Again proving that for the speed of the system the top speed of the vehicle is not the only parameter. And for networks with relatively short distances top speed becomes even less important compared to for example acceleration and dwell times.
Rotterdam and Schiphol are unidirectional stops for Thalys (people only embark on France-bound trains or disembark on the opposite direction).
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Old February 16th, 2013, 01:56 AM   #860
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That's not entirely true, there are people who use Thalys for domestic traveling as well. There aren't many (the cheapest ticket costs € 21 for a single trip from Amsterdam to Rotterdam) but I know some people do.
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