daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 16th, 2013, 02:59 AM   #861
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21239

But the platforms usually display "NIET INSTAPPEN" instead of "TREIN MET TOESLAG".
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 16th, 2013, 03:18 PM   #862
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Those screens always display "Train with supplement" (for Fyra), even when a supplement is not required. There isn't much flexibility in the system (yet). You can take Thalys for Rotterdam - Amsterdam if you have a reservation.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2013, 12:12 PM   #863
Never give up
Registered User
 
Never give up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Copenhagen and Dublin
Posts: 4,319
Likes (Received): 7492

Article from International Railway Journal

Fyra problems could be more political than technical

Written by David Briginshaw

What a mess! I'm referring to the total collapse of Fyra's high-speed service between Amsterdam and Brussels. The immediate cause is problems encountered with the V250 trains during snow and ice, which led to a ban on their operation in Belgium, although not in the Netherlands where they were voluntarily withdrawn from service.

This destroyed confidence in the trains in Belgium, which means it could be months before they are allowed to operate normally even if the technical problems are resolved. In the meantime, a very poor replacement service has been introduced.

This sorry tale has its origins in the decision in 2004 by Belgian National Railways (SNCB) and Netherlands Railways (NS) to buy a 250km/h train of unproven design and seemingly with more regard for price than quality. The AnsaldoBreda trains were due to be delivered by the end of 2007, but testing of the first train did not begin until 2008.

Continual problems and delays in obtaining approval for the train, which rather prophetically was originally called Albatross, meant that a motley fleet of locomotive-hauled trains had to be cobbled together in 2009 in order to launch domestic high-speed services in the Netherlands under the Fyra brand.

Testing continued with the V250 trains until they were finally approved for operation in the two countries last year, paving the way for the launch of a high-speed service linking Amsterdam and Brussels on December 9 with just days to spare. The new Fyra service was designed to replace the conventional hourly-interval service and cut the journey time by a third to 2 hours.

But almost immediately there were problems. A shortage of trains meant it was only possible to run a Fyra service every two hours, and the trains' continuing unreliability quickly resulted in delays and cancellations. In mid-January the service was suspended after accumulated frozen snow under the trains fell off damaging and dislodging several components which dropped on to the track. The Belgian National Safety Authority (DVIS) stepped in and banned the V250 trains from operating in Belgium, making the suspension permanent.

As the paths used for the conventional Amsterdam - Brussels service had already been reallocated to NS to expand domestic services, it was no longer possible to reinstate the old service. Passengers were faced with the prospect of having to pay much higher fares to travel on the already-busy Thales high-speed service from Amsterdam to Brussels or use a series of connecting bus and rail services with greatly extended journey times.

On February 18 two round trips were introduced on the conventional network but only between Brussels and The Hague, as no paths were available north of The Hague. This means the Brussels -Amsterdam trip now takes half an hour longer than before the high-speed Fyra service was introduced. Nevertheless, services between Brussels and The Hague are due to be stepped up to eight trains per day on March 11.

Both SNCB and NS blame AnsaldoBreda for the failure of the V250 trains. AnsaldoBreda issued a public apology for the technical problems and says it is committed to solving them, but it also claims that the problems caused by the build-up of snow and ice under the trains never manifested themselves during tests prior to their entry into service.

Recriminations have started to flow across the Belgian-Dutch border. SNCB's CEO Mr Marc Descheemaecker hinted at "brutal measures" being needed to resolve the Fyra problem when he was interviewed on Belgian television in January. He also questioned the necessity of having a more frequent train service between Brussels and Amsterdam than between Brussels and Paris. However, a glance at the timetable would have told Descheemaecker that the full Fyra service plus the nine Thalys trains per day would have put the Amsterdam - Brussels service, which also serves Schiphol Airport, Rotterdam and Antwerp, on a par with the Brussels - Paris Thalys frequency. In the current situation, passengers have a far worse service than they have had since the 1960s.

As the Belgians appear to have lost complete confidence in the V250 trains and the ability of both NS and AnsaldoBreda to put things right, it will take more than technical modifications to convince them that the V250s should be allowed back on Belgian tracks.

Clearly nobody thought of a contingency plan to cover for the V250 trains, whose reliability was always in question, and it was foolhardy to switch overnight from the conventional to the high-speed service. A phased introduction would have been more prudent.

Some stark choices face NS and SNCB. Should they seek a thorough examination of the V250 trains with a view to driving up their reliability to acceptable levels, and who should carry out the work if SNCB does not have any confidence in AnsaldoBreda?

Alternatively, has the time come to ditch the V250 trains? In this case, the two railways will have to go out to tender for a new fleet of 250km/h tri-voltage emus fitted with ERTMS as well as the Dutch and Belgian signalling systems, which will take two to three years or even longer to acquire, test and put into service. Finally, who is going to foot the bill either to re-engineer the V250 trains or replace them? As I said at the beginning, what a mess.
Never give up no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2013, 01:18 PM   #864
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

The V250 has been tested since 2008. Last year we also had snow and ice in the Netherlands. As you may know services are effectively halved under icy or snowy conditions. Did they bother to test the trains under those circumstances or did they halt testing because they didn't want to run the risk of causing extra delays?

Also I read an article stating that the ETCS software of the V250 is based on an earlier version of the Thalys software. A lot of the bug fixes to the Thalys software have not also been implemented in the V250 software, causing the V250 to suffer from the exact same problems the Thalys used to have. I can't imagine not doing that was an engineering decision.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #865
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
I can't imagine not doing that was an engineering decision.
That probably has to do with the fact that Ansaldo STS (the supplier of the ETCS signalling units for both Thalys and V250) worked as an independant contractor. For Thalys, Thalys was STS's customer. For the V250, AnsaldoBreda was STS's customer.

I think the Thalys contract was signed earlier, when the contract for the V250 OBU was inked, STS copied the engineering work done for the Thalys onto the V250. When you're dealing with contractor situations, you're dealing with different project teams, different contracts, limited resource availability and a high demand from the industry. Once the Thalys project was finished, the engineers probably moved on to the next job as the team working on the units for the V250 progressed.

Is it an engineering decision to not share the Thalys patches with the V250 team? No, I think it has to do with bad communication between the teams due to them being siloed (there's a chance that the members of the respective teams never even met in person).
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2013, 08:51 AM   #866
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Is it an engineering decision to not share the Thalys patches with the V250 team? No, I think it has to do with bad communication between the teams due to them being siloed).
Even in the unlikely event that the 2 teams didn't communicate at all, at least one person (doesn't even have to be an engineer) should have raised the question why, despite being based on the same software, the Thalys exhibited different behaviour like traversing the border without problems while the V250 can't. Because the V250 team is basically reinventing the wheel, it seems more like deliberate red tape to me.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2013, 01:12 PM   #867
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

There's an explanation for that: when a Thalys trainset has to change direction a complete system reset is performed, which reinitializes the software on board the EVC. When a V250 changes direction there's no need to perform a system reboot. If the Thalys would not have to perform the system reset, the same issues would arise with Thalys as they have happened with Fyra V250.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2013, 11:03 AM   #868
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21239

NS has made definitive the new pricing structure for Fyra.

Supplements for any sector will cost € 2,30 for 2nd class, € 3,00 for 1st class (one-way). They had been testing different "plans" and keeping discounts until the V250 arrived.

Sadly, they abolished supplements between Schiphol and Amsterdam Centraal, which mean more crowded trains on that route. One of the nice things about Fyra is that most passengers avoided the supplement and took local trains, makign the journey between airport and station much more pleasant if you dared to fork the extra 1,40 for the supplement.

The supplement for a Breda-Amsterdam was supposed to cost € 9,80 for 2nd class. Without supplements, HSA will be further threatened on its source of revenue.

Now, Fyra trains are full of tourists between airport and station. And it is not like they don't have already 6 non-Fyra trains per hour on that route...
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Last edited by Suburbanist; April 16th, 2013 at 11:14 AM.
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 02:49 AM   #869
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,976
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Without supplements, HSA will be further threatened on its source of revenue.
Really? Lack of supplements is threatening HSA?

You don't think lack of HS is threatening HSA?
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 05:06 AM   #870
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

The lack of everything is threatening HSA. There are no high speed trains, the current trains run with piss-poor punctuality, delays and evacuations happen way too frequent, maintenance is sloppy at its best (the trains run, but don't look at all the broken stuff on board!) and customers are overall very dissatisfied.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 08:38 AM   #871
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The lack of everything is threatening HSA. There are no high speed trains, the current trains run with piss-poor punctuality, delays and evacuations happen way too frequent, maintenance is sloppy at its best (the trains run, but don't look at all the broken stuff on board!) and customers are overall very dissatisfied.
Basically they should get rid of HSA. Integrate the HSL in the IC network. NS should start looking for 200kph multi system trainsets now.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 08:55 AM   #872
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

In the mean time: They have a stockpile of old ICK carriages which used to be suitable for 200 km/h in Germany (in case those have all been sold to Sweden: DBAG still has lots of unused ones around). Certify a multi system 200 km/h locomotive (a ES64U4 was used for testing on the HSL, the Traxxs can also be relatively easy converted from F140MS to 200 km/h P160MS) and you're there.

And once they're running at 200 km/h and the V250 will turn out to be a complete failure they will realise that raising the speed to 250 km/h will only bring 2 to 3 minutes of travel time reduction and abandon the idea of real high speed trains completely...
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 09:13 AM   #873
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
And once they're running at 200 km/h and the V250 will turn out to be a complete failure they will realise that raising the speed to 250 km/h will only bring 2 to 3 minutes of travel time reduction and abandon the idea of real high speed trains completely...
They should buy these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_395
At least these were delivered on time and on budget...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 10:20 AM   #874
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21239

200 km/h is not enough. They need 250km/h. If only not to eat up a lot of time when a Thalys (and in the future Eurostar) trains curising at up to 320km/h are running.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 12:17 PM   #875
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
200 km/h is not enough. They need 250km/h. If only not to eat up a lot of time when a Thalys (and in the future Eurostar) trains curising at up to 320km/h are running.
The difference on Amsterdam - Rotterdam between a 300kph train and a 200 kph trains should be about 5 minutes. That means that it should be no problem to path 2 300 kph trains per hour and 6 200 kph trains per hour. Just have a 300kph train leave 8 minutes after a 200 kph train.
Further south on the Belgian part having 2 200 kph trains per hour and 2 300 khp trains should not be a problem. Especialy if you make one of them stop in Noorderkempen, where it can be overtaken.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #876
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21239

Stopping at Noordkempen would increase total travel time Rotterdam-Antwerpen by at least 8 minutes.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 05:35 PM   #877
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Stopping at Noordkempen would increase total travel time Rotterdam-Antwerpen by at least 8 minutes.
I would not make all trains stop there. And if you use a trains with good acceleration the loss of time isn't 8 minutes...

One could plan for two fast paths and two slower paths per hour. The fast ones are none stop, and used for Thalys and/or Eurostar/ICE. The slow ones for an hourly Amsterdam - Brussels IC and a Breda (or maybe even Eindhoven) Brussels IC. One should stop in Noorderkempen. A lot of Dutch live in that area so there would be a market.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #878
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21239

Only Breda-Antwerpen C. shuttles should stop there. People can then transfer from/to domestic Fyra in Breda.


I was reading about some proposal (don't think it is serious though) of routing some IC services currently terminating at Roosendaal to Antwerpen (that is, making some Zwolle-Rosendaal trains into Zwolle-Antwerpen C. trains), and then plugging some regional shuttle Roosendaal-Breda on the paths (extending the Sprinters from Dordrecht-Roosendal to Breda).

The idea would be to provide easy travel to Belgium for people in Gelderland and Noord Brabant. Problem is: this IC is slow, it stops in every freaking minor station between Arnhem and Nijmegen and it goes slowly on the crappy tracks from Deventer to Zwolle.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 06:40 PM   #879
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
200 km/h is not enough. They need 250km/h. If only not to eat up a lot of time when a Thalys (and in the future Eurostar) trains curising at up to 320km/h are running.
They only needed the 250 km/h to be able to comply with the originaly demanded travel time. But if you can integrate 160 km/h Fyras with 300 km/h Thalyses, integrating 200 km/h trains should be much easier. Nowadays the governments are a bit more sensible and would probably allow a lower speed Fyra.

HSL-Zuid and HSL4 were both designed for 300 km/h max. Running at 320 km/h would only improve travel timing by seconds and is therefore pretty much useless.

The class 395 is the poster boy of how a new train series should be introduced. I'm a fan of Japanese train engineering anyways. The downside of the class 395 is that it is built for UK gauge and thus about 15cm narrower then normal UIC 505-1. Thus you would need a complete redesign of the train and I don't think Hitachi will want to do that for only 19 units.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 08:19 PM   #880
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I was reading about some proposal (don't think it is serious though) of routing some IC services currently terminating at Roosendaal to Antwerpen (that is, making some Zwolle-Rosendaal trains into Zwolle-Antwerpen C. trains), and then plugging some regional shuttle Roosendaal-Breda on the paths (extending the Sprinters from Dordrecht-Roosendal to Breda).
As there are no trains available to do this with this is not a serious proposition.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium