daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 18th, 2013, 08:21 PM   #881
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
The class 395 is the poster boy of how a new train series should be introduced. I'm a fan of Japanese train engineering anyways. The downside of the class 395 is that it is built for UK gauge and thus about 15cm narrower then normal UIC 505-1. Thus you would need a complete redesign of the train and I don't think Hitachi will want to do that for only 19 units.
Hitachi is very eager to get in to the European rolling stock market. I think they might be quite willing to design the carriages to normal UIC gauge only to gain entry to the continental market.
Building a smaller series to a different loading gauge isn't that hard anyway. Stadler does it all the time...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 18th, 2013, 10:12 PM   #882
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

If I remember correctly NS HiSpeed invited 9 companies to bid on the Fyra trains. 6 of them declined. Was Hitachi one of them?
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 10:29 PM   #883
pietje01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Only Breda-Antwerpen C. shuttles should stop there. People can then transfer from/to domestic Fyra in Breda.
Let's hope that doesn't happen.
Those shuttles (now only Noorderkempen-Antwerpen) are only meant as a placeholder until a decent IC train stops there.
As mentioned before, the stop at Noorderkempen can be used to let that train be overtaken by a Thalys or something, so not much capacity is lost.
The HSL between Breda and Antwerp won't be really crowded in the near future.
pietje01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2013, 11:19 PM   #884
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
As there are no trains available to do this with this is not a serious proposition.
Theoretically speaking, it is possible if some of the compositions on Zwolle - Roosendaal would consist of the so called "ICRm-buurlandrijtuigen" (ICRm coaches that can go into neighbouring countries, i.e. Belgium) and a Traxx locomotive, or the locomotive would be changed in Roosendaal.

I'm not a fan of the plan, the Zwolle - Roosendaal intercity has got little in common with Belgium and the train is easily delayed (due to the occupied tracks between Arnhem and Nijmegen). Furthermore, NS doesn't have much TRAXX locos while there are plenty of Class 1700 locos. Changing locomotive in Roosendaal adds too much time. The current solution (The Hague - Brussels) is much more realistic than extending the Zwolle - Roosendaal service to Belgium.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2013, 02:14 AM   #885
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The difference on Amsterdam - Rotterdam between a 300kph train and a 200 kph trains should be about 5 minutes. That means that it should be no problem to path 2 300 kph trains per hour and 6 200 kph trains per hour. Just have a 300kph train leave 8 minutes after a 200 kph train.
8 min just won't be enough. 8 min alone is the difference in travel time between a 300 km/h and a 200 km/h service on the 81,7 km of high speed tracks. These 8 min alone wouldn't be so problematic if high speed service would share tracks with plenty of other services between Schiphol and Amsterdam Centraal as well. It will be the combination of both, the speed difference on the high speed line and the shortage of train paths on the classic line which would make it extremely difficult maybe even impossible to accommodate service with top speeds of 200 km/h along the 300 km/h fast Thalys services.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2013, 08:00 AM   #886
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
8 min just won't be enough. 8 min alone is the difference in travel time between a 300 km/h and a 200 km/h service on the 81,7 km of high speed tracks.
It's 55 km from Rotterdam to Schiphol. On this distance the difference between a 160kph domestic Fyra and the Thalys is only about 4 minutes according to the speed graphs posted in this very thread earlier.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2013, 02:29 PM   #887
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
It's 55 km from Rotterdam to Schiphol. On this distance the difference between a 160kph domestic Fyra and the Thalys is only about 4 minutes according to the speed graphs posted in this very thread earlier.
You seem to forget that domestic high speed services will use HSL Zuid from Schiphol not just to Rotterdam but to a junction near Breda. And on this distance slow services lose up to 8 minutes on Thalys services.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #888
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,406
Likes (Received): 1036

There are also plans to upgrade the VIRM emu's with 25 kV and ERMTS to run with 160 km/u on the HSL. When the IRM emu's where extended to VIRM they prepared the VIRM for a 25kV upgrade in the near future.

Also NShispeed has asked prorail for trainpaths to use the old benelux service in 2014. That means that there is big chance that the fyra service won't return until 2015.
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2013, 05:06 PM   #889
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
You seem to forget that domestic high speed services will use HSL Zuid from Schiphol not just to Rotterdam but to a junction near Breda. And on this distance slow services lose up to 8 minutes on Thalys services.
But you seem to forget that Rotterdam offers an opportunity for fast trains to overtake slow trains.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2013, 11:16 PM   #890
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
But you seem to forget that Rotterdam offers an opportunity for fast trains to overtake slow trains.
Who says I had thought about it. Yet, overtaking is a rather impractical option. It would lengthen the travel for the slower service even further. And it is furthermore a destabilising element for the time table.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2013, 01:41 PM   #891
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

I have yet to see VIRM running on HSL-Zuid, given that the design of those trains is nearly 20 years old I doubt that the trains are compliant with regulations about crashworthiness and fire prevention.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #892
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21239

So the best solution is still to bring the V250 to service.

How many V250 were handled to SNCB and how many to NS?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2013, 02:07 PM   #893
Sopomon
Hideous and malformed
 
Sopomon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 870
Likes (Received): 153

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
So the best solution is still to bring the V250 to service.

How many V250 were handled to SNCB and how many to NS?

I can see it now:

Hey wow this train is so fast and new, look at the scenery rolling by!

(Massive bang)

Jesus what on earth was that?

This is your driver speaking, one of the axles has fallen off and you're all going to die. AnsaldoBreda would like to wish you all a lovely day.
__________________
And he kicked so many rosebushes at her that eventually, Sasuke turned into a log.
Sopomon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2013, 04:37 PM   #894
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,406
Likes (Received): 1036

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
I have yet to see VIRM running on HSL-Zuid, given that the design of those trains is nearly 20 years old I doubt that the trains are compliant with regulations about crashworthiness and fire prevention.
At least it wont fall appart when it got hit by ice
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2013, 11:54 AM   #895
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Who says I had thought about it. Yet, overtaking is a rather impractical option. It would lengthen the travel for the slower service even further. And it is furthermore a destabilising element for the time table.
I can be done however.

For example have the following departures in Amsterdam:
IC 200 kph xx:00 (V) xx:10 (A) xx:20 (B) xx:30 (V) xx:40 (R) xx:50 (B)
HST 300 kph xx:08 xx:38

The trains I marked V stop in Rotterdam and then in Blaak, Dordrecht, Roosendaal and continue all stops to Vlissingen. So after Rotterdam they are no longer in the way of the HST that follows it.
The trains marked B stop in Rotterdam and continue on the HSL, but leave for Breda and beyond (I would run one Eindhoven - Venlo and the other Eindhoven - Maastricht), so by the time the HST would overtake it they leave the line.
- The train marked A goes to Antwerp and Brussels. Since there are 28 minutes between it and the following HST there should be no conflicts here. The train marked R just goes to Rotterdam, but could also continue to Antwerpen - Brussel if there is ever demand for a half hour service on that line (which there well could be).

There are two HST slots per hour in this pattern. Can be used by Thalys and whoever else wants to run HSTs on that route...

This would, I think add tremendous value to the domestic IC network, and still give room for a good international high speed service too. NS would just have to procure 200kph multisystem IC trainsets.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2013, 01:13 PM   #896
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

The 3 month deadline given by NS and SNCB passes today, so I think that somewhere in the next week we'll hear more information about the future of the V250.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2013, 01:58 PM   #897
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21239

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I can be done however.

For example have the following departures in Amsterdam:
IC 200 kph xx:00 (V) xx:10 (A) xx:20 (B) xx:30 (V) xx:40 (R) xx:50 (B)
HST 300 kph xx:08 xx:38

The trains I marked V stop in Rotterdam and then in Blaak, Dordrecht, Roosendaal and continue all stops to Vlissingen. So after Rotterdam they are no longer in the way of the HST that follows it.
The trains marked B stop in Rotterdam and continue on the HSL, but leave for Breda and beyond (I would run one Eindhoven - Venlo and the other Eindhoven - Maastricht), so by the time the HST would overtake it they leave the line.
- The train marked A goes to Antwerp and Brussels. Since there are 28 minutes between it and the following HST there should be no conflicts here. The train marked R just goes to Rotterdam, but could also continue to Antwerpen - Brussel if there is ever demand for a half hour service on that line (which there well could be).

There are two HST slots per hour in this pattern. Can be used by Thalys and whoever else wants to run HSTs on that route...

This would, I think add tremendous value to the domestic IC network, and still give room for a good international high speed service too. NS would just have to procure 200kph multisystem IC trainsets.
Even though I'd be directly benefited from having trains from Tilburg to Amsterdam Centraal, the tracks between Tilburg Uni. and Breda are very crowded, because they deal with freight trains. There are often one or more freight trains parked before Tilburg mains station waiting their paths to travel to Breda.

So if you are running those trains you need to replace the current ones that run from Den Haag to Venlo. Or make them regional trains on the old line running to Breda only.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2013, 06:45 AM   #898
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Even though I'd be directly benefited from having trains from Tilburg to Amsterdam Centraal, the tracks between Tilburg Uni. and Breda are very crowded, because they deal with freight trains. There are often one or more freight trains parked before Tilburg mains station waiting their paths to travel to Breda.

So if you are running those trains you need to replace the current ones that run from Den Haag to Venlo. Or make them regional trains on the old line running to Breda only.
Looking at hte long term plans of NS they actually want to run the following over HSL Zuid:

- 4 tph Eindhoven - Rotterdam and then from there on alternating to Den Haag and Amsterdam. One of those could be extended to Venlo and onwards to Germany.
- 2 tph Rotterdam - Amsterdam Zuid - Almere and eventually to Zwolle.
- 2 tph Amsterdam - Brussel and beyond. Ideally that would be one Amsterdam - Brussel IC, and the other train one that goes alternatingly to London and Paris.
- One IC Breda - Antwerpen.

That's all going to fit on the HSL just fine, even if the ICs are done with sets that only do 200kph. Just space them at 15 minute intervals, and send the international, 300kph trains just a few minutes ahead of them.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2013, 03:17 PM   #899
MarcVD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,069
Likes (Received): 192

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
How many V250 were handled to SNCB and how many to NS?
As far as I know, NS officially took over 9 sets of the 16 that they have
ordered. SNCB hasn't received - and also not paid - anything yet.
MarcVD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2013, 04:39 PM   #900
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21239

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
As far as I know, NS officially took over 9 sets of the 16 that they have
ordered. SNCB hasn't received - and also not paid - anything yet.
Maybe this explain the different attitudes of both companies in regard of AnsaldoBreda. SNCB behaves like it would rather ditch the contract altogether and at most let NS run trains to Belgium on its own.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium