THE NETHERLANDS | High Speed Rail - Page 5

Thermo · July 17th, 2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slagathor

I was under impression the Fyra was an NS-KLM project which goes to show you how successful the Dutch propaganda machine really is

The Dutch media are very nationalistic when it comes to these things I have noticed...

Quote:

Originally Posted by sergiogiorgini

I think I read that NS/KLM ordered 16 "Fyra" V250s, the NMBS 3.

Correct. For legal reasons the trains need to have 1 owner. The NMBS officially bought 3 because the compay already owns many Thalys and Eurostar trains. They also recently ordered over 300 new Siemens 'Desiro' trains for the GEN 'express system' around Brussels.

Appearance wise, I think the Eurostar trains look the best

image hosted on flickr

(NMBS Eurostar train @ Paris Nord)

sergiogiorgini · July 17th, 2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermo

The Dutch media are very nationalistic when it comes to these things I have noticed...

Actually, I'm not getting the idea that anyone is particularly proud of this whole project. Me, I'm an optimist (haha), but the average person thinks it's a dud, a failure, a fiasco.

Slagathor · July 17th, 2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermo

The Dutch media are very nationalistic when it comes to these things I have noticed...

I'm afraid the truth is much more banal: nobody cares. We're not proud of this project, as a nation, it's not very well done at all. Cost a fortune, years of delay and postponement... Terrible. Nationalism? Nah.

I think, more likely, not a single journalist figured it out. They get an invitation from NS to attend the presentation of "the new high speed train" and they draw their conclusions. Nobody can be bothered to dig too deep into this - it's only gonna be a 30 second item on the evening news anyway.

Quote:

Correct. For legal reasons the trains need to have 1 owner. The NMBS officially bought 3 because the compay already owns many Thalys and Eurostar trains. They also recently ordered over 300 new Siemens 'Desiro' trains for the GEN 'express system' around Brussels.

Did they pay for just 3 of them as well? Cause then I'm starting to see where the NL bias comes from. Three is puny.

Quote:

Appearance wise, I think the Eurostar trains look the best

(NMBS Eurostar train @ Paris Nord)

With the silly yellow nose because English law states all trains must have one. Stupid.

3737 · July 17th, 2009, 03:18 PM

I'm not proud of it eather. (i'm dutch to

)
First the long delay with building the HSL Zuid and problems with the ERMTS safety system and now with those ugly fyra trains wich will be also delayed because the builder of the train sucks.

There are rumours that siemens has offerd a contract to build velaro trains for NS Hispeed because Ansaldo must deliver a opperational and certified train before 9 september this year.
If they can't do that the contract is canceld

Thermo · July 17th, 2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slagathor

Did they pay for just 3 of them as well? Cause then I'm starting to see where the NL bias comes from. Three is puny.

The financial aspect is very complicated. The NMBS certainly paid more than these 3 trains. But it's very hard to figure out who paid for what exactly...

Quote:

With the silly yellow nose because English law states all trains must have one. Stupid.

I didn't know all trains in England should have a yellow nose. Quite funny. I still like the train though.

I wish they had chosen the new AGV for the Fyra instead of this Italian 'design'(?)... The AGV is the successor of the famous TGV and looks stunning imo. There are rumours the future Thalys trains will be AGV's.

LUCAFUSAR · July 17th, 2009, 06:50 PM

The NMBS order consisted in 19 AnsaldoBreda V250 Albatros trains. But there was many many problems with the first prototypes, so this order was delayed many times. AnsaldoBreda is in big financial troubles. Here in Italy, all of us know how unreiable AnsaldoBreda is. I'm very disappointed with that because AB was a great engeneering firm, and now is a crappy firm, instead, because of AnsaldoBreda is part of Finmeccanica and this holding is not interested in train's manufacturing business. In fact there are many rumors that AnsaldoBreda could be sold to Bombardier. However, here in Italy, Ferrovie dello Stato are going to place an order of 50-60 HS Trains. I hope they won't be AnsaldoBreda.

sergiogiorgini · July 17th, 2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slagathor

I'm afraid the truth is much more banal: nobody cares. We're not proud of this project, as a nation, it's not very well done at all. Cost a fortune, years of delay and postponement... Terrible. Nationalism? Nah.

There are aspects to be proud of, though. Yes, the project has taken (is taking!) far, far longer than it should have and whoever thought to hire AnsaldoBreda should be shot... But the actual line is exemplary. In other countries, high-speed railways tend to be haste jobs, plowed through the landscape with little regard to homes and villages along the way. For the HSL-Zuid, trees and homes were moved. Actually moved in one piece. An enormous tunnel was built to protect the view of some meadows. Bridges and other features look designed rather than simply utilitarian. It has to be the most carefully manicured high-speed railway line in Europe.

Of course, none of this is any good as long as the thing is lying dormant...

Kaasbroodje · July 17th, 2009, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR

The NMBS order consisted in 19 AnsaldoBreda V250 Albatros trains. But there was many many problems with the first prototypes, so this order was delayed many times. AnsaldoBreda is in big financial troubles. Here in Italy, all of us know how unreiable AnsaldoBreda is. I'm very disappointed with that because AB was a great engeneering firm, and now is a crappy firm, instead, because of AnsaldoBreda is part of Finmeccanica and this holding is not interested in train's manufacturing business. In fact there are many rumors that AnsaldoBreda could be sold to Bombardier. However, here in Italy, Ferrovie dello Stato are going to place an order of 50-60 HS Trains. I hope they won't be AnsaldoBreda.

Ferrovie dello Stato, I really like the name of that. Especially the sound of it

.

ArthurK · July 18th, 2009, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermo

The financial aspect is very complicated. The NMBS certainly paid more than these 3 trains. But it's very hard to figure out who paid for what exactly...

What's your source? That would be new information to me.

As far as I know, Belgian NMBS just bought 3 trains and Dutch HSA ordered 16 trains, which will be leased from NS Financial Service. It would be very unlogical if NMBS would have paid for more. Most of the Fyra-trains will be used for domestic railservices between Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Breda, where NMBS is not involved at all.

The only cross-border Fyra-trains will be the Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Antwerp-Brussels (1x/hour) and the The Hague-Rotterdam-Breda-Antwerp-Brussels (1x/2 hours) services. NMBS initially refused to run the shuttle Brussel-Antwerp-Breda (2x/hour), see this SSC-thread (in Dutch). The Dutch government solved this the way we usually do when Belgium does not cooporate: frustrating the development of the Antwerp harbor by refusing to deepen the Westerschelde-seaway.

For me it's still unclear whether the Brussel-Breda shuttle will run and if so, when it will start. NMBS/Belgium has actually no choice, since it was part of the agreement between Dutch and Belgian governments. But they are still trying... It is clear the Fyra-trains won't be used for that shuttle, as the NMBS want to run it with it's own equipment (i.e. leased Traxx-locomotives with M6-carriages).

Glodenox · July 18th, 2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArthurK

The Dutch government solved this the way we usually do when Belgium does not cooporate: frustrating the development of the Antwerp harbor by refusing to deepen the Westerschelde-seaway.:lol

Funny. Over here it was reported the other way around: our minister would only agree to it if the deepening dossier would (finally) go through. Basically I don't see why the two would be connected seeing the deepening is part of an agreement made between both countries... Oh well, it's the result that counts I guess.

Greetings,
Glodenox

LUCAFUSAR · July 18th, 2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaasbroodje

Ferrovie dello Stato, I really like the name of that. Especially the sound of it

.

Ferrovie dello Stato could be translated with "Italian State Railway". Today the operator is Trenitalia, a branch of Ferrovie dello Stato.

Slagathor · July 18th, 2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glodenox

the deepening is an international right...

We disagree.

Glodenox · July 18th, 2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slagathor

We disagree.

There you go. No need to focus on such a small part of my post.

I'm not here for starting discussions and making fights. Let's just stick to the subject.

Greetings,
Glodenox

hoosier · July 19th, 2009, 05:09 AM

A bit off-topic, but did I read in an earlier post that HSL Zuid will be open to Thalys service by December? If so, that is great!!

Amsterdam to Paris in only three hours- that is excellent.

xlchris · July 19th, 2009, 02:24 PM

Testdrive pictures (july 12)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Curé

xlchris · July 19th, 2009, 02:41 PM

ArthurK · July 20th, 2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosier

A bit off-topic, but did I read in an earlier post that HSL Zuid will be open to Thalys service by December? If so, that is great!!

The NS Hispeed website (in Dutch) says Thalys will run high speed (300 km/h) between Rotterdam and Antwerpen starting from december 13th 2009. It looks like the Schiphol-Rotterdam part will initially remain 160 km/h, while it's for me still unclear when that will be upgraded to 300 km/h. I guess that it will be fall 2010, when they will commence the cross-border Fyra-services with 250 km/h.

***Momo1435*** · July 21st, 2009, 11:41 AM

The Thalys will indeed only run 160 km/h on the Schiphol - Rotterdam part of the line. It's because of the Bombardier Traxx loco's that are used for the temporary shuttle trains between Amsterdam and Rotterdam. They have ETCS level 2 on board but it's not approved because of the problems with the interoperability of the Bombardier system on the loc and the Siemens/Thales system on the line. Therefor the Bombardier Traxx's can only run using ETCS level 1 on the line that has a maximum speed of 160 km/h. It's also still impossible to use both level 1 and 2 on the line at the same time, therefor the Thalys trains also have to use the ETCS level 1 on this part of the line.

It will be sorted if the Bombardiers Level 2 system is approved after modifications, or when the Fyra trains will enter service. The only problem will be if the Ansaldo Systems level 2 equipment on the Fyra will also have problems using the Siemens/Thales system on the line.

The only real solution is when the EU changes the standards in such a way that there's no room for small differences between the systems of the different manufactures that created all these problems.

33Hz · July 22nd, 2009, 12:12 AM

The joys of open standards...

Slagathor · July 22nd, 2009, 09:25 AM

How would you like to be the engineer trying to explain it all to the European Parliament? That's one heck of a powerpoint presentation you got there. And you know 60% of those idiots is gonna get the wrong idea and make the WRONG decision no matter what you say

July 19th, 2009, 05:09 AM	#94
hoosier Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 2,465 Likes (Received): 0	A bit off-topic, but did I read in an earlier post that HSL Zuid will be open to Thalys service by December? If so, that is great!! Amsterdam to Paris in only three hours- that is excellent. __________________ R.I.P. Moke- my best bud

July 19th, 2009, 02:41 PM	#96
xlchris Not much Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Haarlem Posts: 11,083 Likes (Received): 49	__________________ "

July 21st, 2009, 11:41 AM	#98
*Momo1435* S/mileage Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: アルフェナンデンライン Posts: 16,064 Likes (Received): 997	The Thalys will indeed only run 160 km/h on the Schiphol - Rotterdam part of the line. It's because of the Bombardier Traxx loco's that are used for the temporary shuttle trains between Amsterdam and Rotterdam. They have ETCS level 2 on board but it's not approved because of the problems with the interoperability of the Bombardier system on the loc and the Siemens/Thales system on the line. Therefor the Bombardier Traxx's can only run using ETCS level 1 on the line that has a maximum speed of 160 km/h. It's also still impossible to use both level 1 and 2 on the line at the same time, therefor the Thalys trains also have to use the ETCS level 1 on this part of the line. It will be sorted if the Bombardiers Level 2 system is approved after modifications, or when the Fyra trains will enter service. The only problem will be if the Ansaldo Systems level 2 equipment on the Fyra will also have problems using the Siemens/Thales system on the line. The only real solution is when the EU changes the standards in such a way that there's no room for small differences between the systems of the different manufactures that created all these problems. __________________ （仮） Japan Projects & Construction ｷﾀ━━━━━━━━━(｡･∀･｡)ﾉ━━━━━━━━━!!! !! Japanese Schoolgirls !!

July 22nd, 2009, 09:25 AM	#100
Slagathor Luctor et Emergo Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Hague Posts: 5,082 Likes (Received): 189	How would you like to be the engineer trying to explain it all to the European Parliament? That's one heck of a powerpoint presentation you got there. And you know 60% of those idiots is gonna get the wrong idea and make the WRONG decision no matter what you say __________________ Eh? Fotoreportages: Middelburg, ZL \| Vlissingen, ZL

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July 17th, 2009, 03:18 PM	#84
3737 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Leiden Posts: 394 Likes (Received): 18	I'm not proud of it eather. (i'm dutch to ) First the long delay with building the HSL Zuid and problems with the ERMTS safety system and now with those ugly fyra trains wich will be also delayed because the builder of the train sucks. There are rumours that siemens has offerd a contract to build velaro trains for NS Hispeed because Ansaldo must deliver a opperational and certified train before 9 september this year. If they can't do that the contract is canceld

July 17th, 2009, 06:50 PM	#86
LUCAFUSAR Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,322 Likes (Received): 42	The NMBS order consisted in 19 AnsaldoBreda V250 Albatros trains. But there was many many problems with the first prototypes, so this order was delayed many times. AnsaldoBreda is in big financial troubles. Here in Italy, all of us know how unreiable AnsaldoBreda is. I'm very disappointed with that because AB was a great engeneering firm, and now is a crappy firm, instead, because of AnsaldoBreda is part of Finmeccanica and this holding is not interested in train's manufacturing business. In fact there are many rumors that AnsaldoBreda could be sold to Bombardier. However, here in Italy, Ferrovie dello Stato are going to place an order of 50-60 HS Trains. I hope they won't be AnsaldoBreda.

July 22nd, 2009, 12:12 AM	#99
33Hz Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 317 Likes (Received): 0	The joys of open standards...