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Old September 27th, 2013, 08:27 PM   #1041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Eurostar and Thalys are both gonna be allowed to use the HSL, and NS is party in neither of those. So what the heck are you talking about?
I'm talking about an operator, other than Thalys (which was going to operate regardless) and Eurostar (insignificant, it is not even certain they will sell tickets to Bruxelles Midi on those 2 daily trains), to operate high-speed services with high-speed trains on a limited stop with reserved trains.

This "Benelux plus" is a truncated service to placate all stakeholders on the following route: Amsterdam - Schiphol - Den Haag - Rotterdam (HSL) Breda (HSL) Antwerpen - Mechelen - Zaventem - Bruxelles. Lets analyze it:

- it uses, absurdily, the old railway between Schiphol and Rotterdam to serve Den Haag
- it stops in Breda
- it stops in Mechelen and Zaventem

So, essentially, NS now wants to operate one single service to cater for all demands of HSA: services calling at Den Haag, services connceting Breda with Antwerpen, some new train linkin Netherlands with Zaventem airport...

This is an entirely different animal than the one sold when HSA got its concession. It is a different scope altogether. Therefore it should be put to tender in search of a new operator, instead of having NS being rewarded with a lighter contract with worse service after it failed to perform the services conceded to its subsidiary HSA.
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Old September 27th, 2013, 08:37 PM   #1042
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Considering that nobody has the ready capacity to properly exploit this thing (neither NS, NMBS, SNCF, DB, or Eurostar has the necessary HS trains parked and ready somewhere), this is a pretty good fix. Of course it's completely different from the original promise, but then a lot has happened in the meantime.
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Old September 27th, 2013, 08:40 PM   #1043
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Outrageous plans about traffic to Belgium! They should cancel the NS concession and give it to another operator.
I agree.
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Old September 27th, 2013, 08:41 PM   #1044
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That no one has trains ready for service is yet another reason to put out a tender. Maybe a company like NTV or Virgin Rail gets interested on exploring train services over HSL, including the domestic ones.

This measure involves rewarding two of the main actors that mismanaged the whole HSA project with 3 more years and a long concession with watered down requirements. This is like some builder is hired to build some Zara Hadid office complex with artificial waterfalls, fails badly, then its parent company offers to build a handful of generic mid-rises with stucco on the entrance hall.
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Old September 27th, 2013, 08:47 PM   #1045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Considering that nobody has the ready capacity to properly exploit this thing (neither NS, NMBS, SNCF, DB, or Eurostar has the necessary HS trains parked and ready somewhere), this is a pretty good fix. Of course it's completely different from the original promise, but then a lot has happened in the meantime.
NS does not want this to be a temporary fix, they want this to be the permanent thing.


Nowhere do they say they have ordered 250km/h trains, which they should have done by now if they want to run that service in about 4 years.


It's like you make a deal with someone to build a house. That person hires some Italians to build the house. He delivers that house to you half-finished, and during the first bit of snow the house starts falling apart.
The guy tells you the Italians are incompetent, stops mentioning building you a new, proper house and instead shows you a shed, going "Well, what do you think of this amazing shed you asked for?!".
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Old September 27th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #1046
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Has Eurostar found a solution to the UK immigration problem? Are there going to be sealed off areas for passport checks? Will Eurostar allow traffic between Amsterdam and Brussels?
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Old September 27th, 2013, 11:00 PM   #1047
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Has it been mentioned whether there still be a supplement to use the high speed line between Rotterdam and Schiphol?
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Old September 27th, 2013, 11:24 PM   #1048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

This "Benelux plus" is a truncated service to placate all stakeholders on the following route: Amsterdam - Schiphol - Den Haag - Rotterdam (HSL) Breda (HSL) Antwerpen - Mechelen - Zaventem - Bruxelles. Lets analyze it:

- it uses, absurdily, the old railway between Schiphol and Rotterdam to serve Den Haag
- it stops in Breda
- it stops in Mechelen and Zaventem

So, essentially, NS now wants to operate one single service to cater for all demands of HSA: services calling at Den Haag, services connceting Breda with Antwerpen, some new train linkin Netherlands with Zaventem airport...
For this bizarre trip the train will need 194 minutes (estimation by NS). The old Benelux did it in 164 minutes.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 07:18 PM   #1049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
This "Benelux plus" is a truncated service to placate all stakeholders on the following route: Amsterdam - Schiphol - Den Haag - Rotterdam (HSL) Breda (HSL) Antwerpen - Mechelen - Zaventem - Bruxelles. Lets analyze it:
I am willing to bet that this service will probably transport more passengers between the Netherlands and Belgium than all the others combined.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #1050
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I am willing to bet that this service will probably transport more passengers between the Netherlands and Belgium than all the others combined.
I don't think so (if you only count number of passengers crossing the B-NL border on each train, excluding domestic trips on this train).
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Old September 28th, 2013, 08:12 PM   #1051
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I don't think so (if you only count number of passengers crossing the B-NL border on each train, excluding domestic trips on this train).
We will see. One thing the Fyra disaster has shown is that most of the passengers on the Brussel - Amsterdam route prefer a train that functions like a domestic IC, not a TGV.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 02:15 PM   #1052
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If you go from Rotterdam to Breda to Antwerpen, can that be done without reversing in Breda?

Last edited by radamfi; September 29th, 2013 at 02:49 PM.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #1053
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If you go from Rotterdam to Breda to Antwerpen, can that be done without reversing in Breda?
No.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #1054
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I for one am glad they are serving Den Haag with this train. Be better if it stopped at Leiden as well.

But 200km/h is extremely disappointing. You'd think they would aim for 249km/h at least. Maybe they could lease some TGV with the same spec as Thalys for a while?
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Old September 29th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #1055
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I for one am glad they are serving Den Haag with this train. Be better if it stopped at Leiden as well.
There is no need to stop in Leiden whatsoever. What is next? Stopping in Hoofdorp and Delft as well? The whole trip will already take 3h34 min (vs. 2h37min on Thalys...).

In my opinion, they should run two separate trains:

12x day Amsterdam C - Schiphol - Rotterdam - Antwerpen - Zaventem - Bruxelles Midi

6x day Den Haag C. - Rotterdam - Breda - Anterwpen - Mechelen - Zaventem - Bruxelles Midi
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Old September 29th, 2013, 05:14 PM   #1056
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There is no need to stop in Leiden whatsoever. What is next? Stopping in Hoofdorp and Delft as well?
Wikipedia: "the city forms one densely connected urban area with its suburbs Oegstgeest, Leiderdorp and Voorschoten. The larger Leiden agglomeration counts 332,000 inhabitants which makes it the sixth major agglomeration in the Netherlands."

Which is 3x bigger than Delft, for example.

Back in the day when this train did stop there (pre HSL Zuid), there was no shortage of people using it.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 05:22 PM   #1057
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Wikipedia: "the city forms one densely connected urban area with its suburbs Oegstgeest, Leiderdorp and Voorschoten. The larger Leiden agglomeration counts 332,000 inhabitants which makes it the sixth major agglomeration in the Netherlands."

Which is 3x bigger than Delft, for example.

Back in the day when this train did stop there (pre HSL Zuid), there was no shortage of people using it.
My point is: Leiden C. is too close to Den Haag HS and there are more than 70 trains per day connecting both.

The old Benelux train didn't call at Leiden AFAIK. It traveled straight from Schiphol to Den Haag HS.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 06:54 PM   #1058
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Why will the Beneluxplus train take 194 minutes? I have the old timetable from Dec 2011 to Dec 2012 and the Benelux train left Amsterdam C at xx53, Rotterdam C at xx55, arriving at Antwerpen C at xx00 and Brussel Z at xx42. So 65 minutes from Rotterdam to Antwerp. The difference is stopping at Breda instead of Dordrecht and Roosendaal, and also stopping at Brussels airport.

Fyra gets 24 minutes at the moment to go from Rotterdam to Breda. Stopping at Brussels airport would probably add another 5 minutes. So in order for it to be slower than the old Benelux train it would need to take more than 36 minutes to reverse at Breda and travel to Antwerp. For it to take 194 minutes it would need to take nearly an hour to do that!
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Old September 29th, 2013, 07:36 PM   #1059
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The Breda to Amsterdam IC via HSL-Zuid could connect on the adjacent platform so that passengers who want to get to Rotterdam, Schiphol and Amsterdam quicker can change trains while the Beneluxplus is turning around.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 08:35 PM   #1060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Wikipedia: "the city forms one densely connected urban area with its suburbs Oegstgeest, Leiderdorp and Voorschoten. The larger Leiden agglomeration counts 332,000 inhabitants which makes it the sixth major agglomeration in the Netherlands."

Which is 3x bigger than Delft, for example.

Back in the day when this train did stop there (pre HSL Zuid), there was no shortage of people using it.
A few years ago it was the 5th busiest station of the dutch railway network but that is also caused due to it's good conection with the other cities. In my opinion it shouldn't stop at Leiden or else it becomes an international sprinter. Also every 15 minutes a train departs to The Hague HS which takes you also around 15 minutes where you can hop on the benelux.
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