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Old October 19th, 2013, 01:27 AM   #1081
Sunfuns
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K_ is right, this arrangement would pretty much kill the service. Might as well fly and go through the security check in Amsterdam without the added inconvenience of taking your seat then getting out for 80 min and then getting back on again. Sure some people will still take it, but it will be <50% of what it otherwise could have been.

Also I wonder about the capacity reductions at Brussels Midi with trains just standing there for an hour.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:04 AM   #1082
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With just 2 trains per day, the costs of putting immigration booths on Dutch stations is too high. We'd need like 10 London-Netherlands services to justify the investment in gates, segregated platforms and convince the Brits to send some officers to staff the stations
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Old October 19th, 2013, 11:44 AM   #1083
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Or just switch to "on the roll" checks, like on Finland-Russia border... The delta of wealth level between UK and France/Belgium/Netherlands seems to be even lower then between Russia and Finland.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 12:15 PM   #1084
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Or just switch to "on the roll" checks, like on Finland-Russia border... The delta of wealth level between UK and France/Belgium/Netherlands seems to be even lower then between Russia and Finland.
This is not the issue.

Major problem is that British law establishes or grant special rights to asylum seekers if the apply for status on British soil. If someone arrives by train in UK and claims asylum, that person will (by virtue of law) get rights to some emergence accommodation, various hearings, social services while waiting 2-4 years and probably illegal work in the meantime.

It is unlikely the Brits will change this law just for the sake of Eurostar services
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Old October 19th, 2013, 12:39 PM   #1085
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This is not the issue. Major problem is that British law establishes or grant special rights to asylum seekers if the apply for status on British soil. If someone arrives by train in UK and claims asylum, that person will (by virtue of law) get rights to some emergence accommodation, various hearings, social services while waiting 2-4 years and probably illegal work in the meantime. It is unlikely the Brits will change this law just for the sake of Eurostar services
How is this solved at British airports?
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:34 PM   #1086
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You can't board a plane bound for UK (or any other country outside Schengen area) without showing a valid ID containing a visa if it's not from a country with which UK has a visa free travel treaty.

Airlines are held responsible if someone without an obvious right of entering UK is admitted on board.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:39 PM   #1087
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You can't board a plane bound for UK (or any other country outside Schengen area) without showing a valid ID containing a visa if it's not from a country with which UK has a visa free travel treaty. Airlines are held responsible if someone without an obvious right of entering UK is admitted on board.
But there is no UK border police stationed at other airports...
Also this "airlines are held responsible" means in practice that the airline has to transport the person back if he is refused entry. Given that the marginal cost for a seat is very low for Eurostar I don't see why they couldn't just do the same.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 03:16 PM   #1088
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No, but there is an official border control from the departing country. In Basel airport, for example, there is a special segregated corner with 3-4 gates for flights outside Schengen area (mostly UK, Turkey and Balkan states) and I don't think any potential refugees would be admitted there. There must be some international agreement about these kinds of things.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 04:23 PM   #1089
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Well, this means that airline practice can be extended to Eurostar.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 04:33 PM   #1090
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But there is no UK border police stationed at other airports...
Also this "airlines are held responsible" means in practice that the airline has to transport the person back if he is refused entry. Given that the marginal cost for a seat is very low for Eurostar I don't see why they couldn't just do the same.
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Well, this means that airline practice can be extended to Eurostar.
UK doesn't allow citizens of many countries to travel to an UK airport without proper visas, in some cases even for airside transfers, but if someone does arrive without it, this person might claim asylum in UK.

It is not a matter of sending the passenger back, but providing an alternate loophole for people who want to claim asylum (in a scenario where more than 95% of all claims are ultimately rejected after years of appeals and so on).

Theoretically Eurostar could adopt this practice, putting people on origin countries in charge of making sure everyone has visas or IDs, using advance passenger information systems etc. That would require creating of separate departure areas on stations in the continent, though.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 05:07 PM   #1091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
UK doesn't allow citizens of many countries to travel to an UK airport without proper visas, in some cases even for airside transfers, but if someone does arrive without it, this person might claim asylum in UK. It is not a matter of sending the passenger back, but providing an alternate loophole for people who want to claim asylum (in a scenario where more than 95% of all claims are ultimately rejected after years of appeals and so on). Theoretically Eurostar could adopt this practice, putting people on origin countries in charge of making sure everyone has visas or IDs, using advance passenger information systems etc. That would require creating of separate departure areas on stations in the continent, though.
So check passports on the train. If that is possible between Russia and Finland...
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Old October 20th, 2013, 01:51 AM   #1092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
UK doesn't allow citizens of many countries to travel to an UK airport without proper visas, in some cases even for airside transfers, but if someone does arrive without it, this person might claim asylum in UK.

It is not a matter of sending the passenger back, but providing an alternate loophole for people who want to claim asylum (in a scenario where more than 95% of all claims are ultimately rejected after years of appeals and so on).

Theoretically Eurostar could adopt this practice, putting people on origin countries in charge of making sure everyone has visas or IDs, using advance passenger information systems etc. That would require creating of separate departure areas on stations in the continent, though.
Well, they can check it on the go, starting from Lille and finishing before Calais, then detain any non-compliant passengers in Calain.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 08:45 AM   #1093
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Well, they can check it on the go, starting from Lille and finishing before Calais, then detain any non-compliant passengers in Calain.
So, you're basically saying "let the French take care of the problem"? (I live in France, but am not French myself.) Their crime is that they have an open border with Belgium/Netherlands? - Unlike the Brits who are still stuck in the chauvinism of an earlier century.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 11:26 AM   #1094
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So, you're basically saying "let the French take care of the problem"? (I live in France, but am not French myself.) Their crime is that they have an open border with Belgium/Netherlands? - Unlike the Brits who are still stuck in the chauvinism of an earlier century.
Well, Eurostar may reach agreement to return such passenger to their origin station... Anyway, this mechanism is supposed to scare of illegal migrants, not to get them in packs every hour.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 05:06 PM   #1095
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
K_ is right, this arrangement would pretty much kill the service. Might as well fly and go through the security check in Amsterdam without the added inconvenience of taking your seat then getting out for 80 min and then getting back on again. Sure some people will still take it, but it will be <50% of what it otherwise could have been.

Also I wonder about the capacity reductions at Brussels Midi with trains just standing there for an hour.
As I said, by requiring people to de-train at Brussels they can open up the service to domestic travellers between there and Amsterdam - this should more than make up for the impact on UK traffic, especially following the issues with Fyra.

As much as we might want the need for border and security checks to be reduced or removed there is no reason to think that is going to happen, nor are they going to be undertaken on-board or on arrival at St Pancras. That's the reality of the situation for the foreseeable future, which I'm sure Eurostar have taken into account.

As for capacity at Brussels, only trains leaving for London should actually need to depart from the segregated platforms - services from London could if necessary use the conventional platforms, whether they continue to Amsterdam or are then stabled awaiting the next departure to London. This may be more of an issue when DB start operating through the tunnel, as I believe they plan to split/join services at Brussels using separate portions.

Chris
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Old October 20th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #1096
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As I said, by requiring people to de-train at Brussels they can open up the service to domestic travellers between there and Amsterdam
So would getting rid of the security theatre...
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Old October 21st, 2013, 02:12 AM   #1097
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Why they just make the UK stations like international territory and put the border control on the exits....
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Old October 21st, 2013, 02:42 PM   #1098
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Why they just make the UK stations like international territory and put the border control on the exits....
It's not just an immigration issue but one of security too, passengers would still need to have their luggage screened before travelling through the Channel Tunnel and therefore the use of a secure platform.

I suppose there is also the risk of people trying to avoid going through security checks at stations once they'd reached British soil - for example by forcing an emergency stop or, as sadly happened some years back to a man who had been turned back at St Pancras, using the emergency door release to exit while moving. They may be excessive but I'm afraid the current arrangements are here to stay for both practical and political reasons.

Chris

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Old October 21st, 2013, 05:37 PM   #1099
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It's not just an immigration issue but one of security too, passengers would still need to have their luggage screened before travelling through the Channel Tunnel and therefore the use of a secure platform. I suppose there is also the risk of people trying to avoid going through security checks at stations once they'd reached British soil - for example by forcing an emergency stop or, as sadly happened some years back to a man who had been turned back at St Pancras, using the emergency door release to exit while moving. They may be excessive but I'm afraid the current arrangements are here to stay for both practical and political reasons. Chris
They exist for political reasons, as there are no practical reasons why luggage needs to be scanned...
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Old October 21st, 2013, 05:41 PM   #1100
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Well I thought about Maadeuurija's suggestion too.
Some of the problems you mentioned can easily be overcome. It was mentioned here that only 10% of the luggage needs to be checked. Which means random spotchecks are sufficient.
From what I gather, the engineer can already override the emergency stop as it is.
And when passport control is done on the moving train, an illegal can be apprehended before reaching British soil. Which pretty much solves all problems.
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