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Old October 22nd, 2013, 12:56 AM   #1101
Christopher125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crownsteler View Post
Well I thought about Maadeuurija's suggestion too.
Some of the problems you mentioned can easily be overcome. It was mentioned here that only 10% of the luggage needs to be checked. Which means random spotchecks are sufficient.
From what I gather, the engineer can already override the emergency stop as it is.
And when passport control is done on the moving train, an illegal can be apprehended before reaching British soil. Which pretty much solves all problems.
If it was that easy we wouldn't be having this discussion nearly two decades after Eurostar began operations, during which security and border controls have only become tighter.

- Spot checks still require their own dedicated facilities at stations, doing it on-board is impractical.
- A driver is not going to ignore a potential safety risk, they are hardly going to know the passenger involved is trying to illegally enter the country
- Passport checks were once carried out during the journey, but not only is this expensive in terms of manpower but the UK government insisted on doing this at stations I believe to allow access to the appropriate IT systems.

As I mentioned before there is also the risk of someone turned back doing something desperate, like the man who died jumping from the train after forcing open a door.

I'm not supporting the current situation, I think it's over the top especially the supposed terrorist threat to the tunnel, but the response to the 'Lille loophole' does not suggest any watering down of security or border checks is likely in the foreseeable future.

Chris

Last edited by Christopher125; October 22nd, 2013 at 01:08 AM.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 08:24 AM   #1102
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Before Shengen onboard checks were the usual way to do it in continental Europe. Most arguments against it are just looking for excuses to keep a system they know is not optimal.

The simple solution?: Why not check the people boarding before Brussels on board and after Brussels off board? It seems unlikely to me the train is already so crowded by then that that would be diffucult.

Also: Nowadays it's no problem at all to arrange access to the appropriate IT systems onboard.

If a passenger could force a door on a moving train, it was a bad design.
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 12:11 PM   #1103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher125 View Post
If it was that easy we wouldn't be having this discussion nearly two decades after Eurostar began operations, during which security and border controls have only become tighter.

- Spot checks still require their own dedicated facilities at stations, doing it on-board is impractical.
- A driver is not going to ignore a potential safety risk, they are hardly going to know the passenger involved is trying to illegally enter the country
- Passport checks were once carried out during the journey, but not only is this expensive in terms of manpower but the UK government insisted on doing this at stations I believe to allow access to the appropriate IT systems.

As I mentioned before there is also the risk of someone turned back doing something desperate, like the man who died jumping from the train after forcing open a door.

I'm not supporting the current situation, I think it's over the top especially the supposed terrorist threat to the tunnel, but the response to the 'Lille loophole' does not suggest any watering down of security or border checks is likely in the foreseeable future.

Chris
Common, it's 2013, even in Ukraine border control have pocket computers with on-line access to immigration bases :facepalm:
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 05:31 PM   #1104
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Quote:
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The simple solution?: Why not check the people boarding before Brussels on board and after Brussels off board? It seems unlikely to me the train is already so crowded by then that that would be diffucult.
Checking people's luggage when they are on the train simply isn't a practical option.

Quote:
If a passenger could force a door on a moving train, it was a bad design.
It worked exactly the way emergency door releases are meant to, it's a standard safety feature on modern trains to allow escape.

At the end of the day if there was a 'simple solution' to all this Eurostar would've found it, but relaxing anything to do with immigration and security is very difficult if not impossible in the current climate.

Chris
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 05:37 PM   #1105
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Quote:
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At the end of the day if there was a 'simple solution' to all this Eurostar would've found it, but relaxing anything to do with immigration and security is very difficult if not impossible in the current climate.
There is indeed no simple solution to Brittish Institutional paranoia...
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 06:07 PM   #1106
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There is indeed no simple solution to Brittish Institutional paranoia...
I wouldn't say that, while fears over immigration and security may be excessive in my opinion these are real issues - thanks to the IRA there is a long history of bombings in Britain and there's no doubt people hav used Eurostar to try and enter the country illegally; as this BBC article points out at least 160 people were turned back at St Pancras and 140 removed from the train at Lille in 2011 alone.

Chris
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Old October 22nd, 2013, 09:51 PM   #1107
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I wouldn't say that, while fears over immigration and security may be excessive in my opinion these are real issues - thanks to the IRA there is a long history of bombings in Britain and there's no doubt people hav used Eurostar to try and enter the country illegally; as this BBC article points out at least 160 people were turned back at St Pancras and 140 removed from the train at Lille in 2011 alone. Chris
So 160 were turned back? And 140 removed from the train?

Why then do we continuously hear put forward as argument that it's impossible to turn people back at st Pancras, or remove them from the train...
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Old November 13th, 2013, 06:08 PM   #1108
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NS guts high-speed premium services in Netherlands

NS released a notice informing about upcoming changes in domestic high speed services

- FYRA brand is going to disappear

- Surcharges and reservations abolished for travel between Breda and Rotterdam (they had been abolished already for travel between Amsterdam and Schiphol). It remains for Schiphol-Rotterdam sector.

- There will be new surcharge fee machines allowing costumers to buy surcharges between Rotterdam and Schiphol on the platforms where high-speed trains depart from.

- An additional Thalys train between Amsterdam and Bruxelles-Midi will start running this December, bringing it to a total of 12 daily services (9 of which continue to Paris).
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Old November 13th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #1109
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The demise of the Fyra brand is only logical, it is severely damaged after the V250 fiasco (leaving out whoever is responsible) and represents a total failure. NS wants to forget about it and move on.

The "on platform surcharge fee machines" aren't ticket vending machines, but they're OV-chipkaart readers. Simply tapping your card against the reader will suffice to buy a Fyra Intercity Direct supplement, the costs will be deducted from the balance on your card.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 09:00 AM   #1110
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I wonder if they are going to change the livery. The current red/white will likely disappear. But as it's not a regular intercity the standard yellow/blue livery wouldn't make sense to me. Back to something like the blue/yellow livery the IC+ used to have or simple reverse the yellow and blue?
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Old November 14th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #1111
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What about an orange train?
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Old November 14th, 2013, 11:16 AM   #1112
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No.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 12:00 PM   #1113
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NS used a partially orange train last year, as part of some marketing action about the Olympics. I think they could use an orange livery with a waving strip in blue, white and red.

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Old November 14th, 2013, 12:05 PM   #1114
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Ugliest train ever.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 04:51 PM   #1115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher125 View Post
I wouldn't say that, while fears over immigration and security may be excessive in my opinion these are real issues - thanks to the IRA there is a long history of bombings in Britain and there's no doubt people hav used Eurostar to try and enter the country illegally; as this BBC article points out at least 160 people were turned back at St Pancras and 140 removed from the train at Lille in 2011 alone.

Chris
Yes, Chris, but I think you've got the issue so close to you (I'm assuming you're British?) that you may find it difficult to perceive how far from an emerging European position Britain has positioned herself. These days even Switzerland (outside EU and bone-hard conservative country) has joined the Schengen Area. The official explanation was that "in these days of free travel it would be inhospitable and silly to force people to show passports at the Swiss border". The unofficial reason is that most of the illegal immigrants come via 300 km of mountainous border with Italy - which they couldn't close hermetically even if they wanted to.

As for the issue of anti-terrorism security, well, my native Denmark is right now beginning the construction of an 19 km railway tunnel between Seeland (Denmark) and Fehmarn (Germany). There will be no security controls, and passport controls have long-since been abandoned. But, what can I say, there's little point in accusing our Brittish Brethren of having an insular mentality. After all the country IS an island.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #1116
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Yes, Chris, but I think you've got the issue so close to you (I'm assuming you're British?) that you may find it difficult to perceive how far from an emerging European position Britain has positioned herself.
I am well aware of how different the position is, but having no land border with Continental Europe has undeniable political, cultural and practical consequences.

There's little point in Switzerland trying to stay outside Schengen not just because it is landlocked but it also has very strong cultural ties with surrounding countries like France and Germany. This is a very different situation to France and England.

Chris
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Old November 19th, 2013, 01:26 AM   #1117
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After all the country IS an island.
Technically it stopped being an island on the breakthrough of the Channel Tunnel. However, within minutes, a border control was set up, by the UK!
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Old November 19th, 2013, 02:47 PM   #1118
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Originally Posted by Christopher125 View Post
I am well aware of how different the position is, but having no land border with Continental Europe has undeniable political, cultural and practical consequences.

There's little point in Switzerland trying to stay outside Schengen not just because it is landlocked but it also has very strong cultural ties with surrounding countries like France and Germany. This is a very different situation to France and England.

Chris
Do the benefits outweigh the losses for the UK (in other words, is it better for the UK to not be in Schengen)?
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Old November 19th, 2013, 04:08 PM   #1119
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Do the benefits outweigh the losses for the UK (in other words, is it better for the UK to not be in Schengen)?
It is hard to know exactly, as UK has never been on Schengen. They are an island, thus the costs of controlling borders are much less than those of Switzerland or Germany.

What UK fears it that it would become the magnet for illegal immigrants that reach continental Europe by land or crossing the Mediterranean. There is also an aspect of agricultural pest control.
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Old November 19th, 2013, 09:20 PM   #1120
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It is hard to know exactly, as UK has never been on Schengen. They are an island, thus the costs of controlling borders are much less than those of Switzerland or Germany.

What UK fears it that it would become the magnet for illegal immigrants that reach continental Europe by land or crossing the Mediterranean. There is also an aspect of agricultural pest control.
The amount of people sneaking into lorries around Calais does suggest that people want to come here even when already being in an EU country. Many suggest that we are a soft touch and give a load of free stuff to immigrants. I am not so sure that we are any more welcoming than other EU/EEA countries but this is the perception. There is also the issue that we would have to join with Ireland and the rest of the Common Travel Area.
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