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Old May 28th, 2010, 08:06 AM   #141
k.k.jetcar
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Excuses if this has been mentioned before, but do you find it ironic that the V250 trainsets are also known as "Albatross"??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albatross_(metaphor)

I think the marketing department messed up on the naming. Kind of like GM trying to sell its "Nova" or Mitsubishi its "Pajero" vehicles in Spanish speaking countries
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Old May 28th, 2010, 09:21 AM   #142
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Well ... The train 's grille looks horribly ugly and visible..
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Old May 29th, 2010, 04:46 AM   #143
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Fyra is going to run thru to Paris or just codeshare?
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Old May 29th, 2010, 05:48 AM   #144
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^In that one safety video it looks like it crumples like a tin can, but maybe it was just a mock up.
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Old May 29th, 2010, 06:51 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal_t View Post
Fyra is going to run thru to Paris or just codeshare?
Fyra is intended for Amsterdam - Brussel. But for the moment all bets are off whether the V250 actually ever runs...
"Codesharing" btw is not something railways do.
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Old May 29th, 2010, 06:53 AM   #146
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Quote:
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^In that one safety video it looks like it crumples like a tin can, but maybe it was just a mock up.
"crumpling like a can" is actually quite good behaviour in a crash...
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Old May 29th, 2010, 03:44 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Fyra is intended for Amsterdam - Brussel. But for the moment all bets are off whether the V250 actually ever runs...
"Codesharing" btw is not something railways do.
They do, actually. If you try to book a flight from Brussels to Paris on klm.com you will get a flight, it'll even have a flight number. However, you'll depart from ZYR which is the Brussels South Railway Station, the aircraft is a TGV.

Fyra will only run on Amsterdam - Brussels, however. No other safety systems than those required will be installed on the train, the same goes for supported voltages. Only 1500, 3000 and 25 kV. Since there's no 15 kV the trains will never run to Germany, for example.
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Old May 29th, 2010, 09:58 PM   #148
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Quote:
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"crumpling like a can" is actually quite good behaviour in a crash...
To a certain extent yea but structural integrity is also important, something that european trains certainly lack.
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Old May 29th, 2010, 11:25 PM   #149
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Europe isn't in the best of positions there. Railways were embraced here at an early stage which means we're now riding on old tracks with significant limitations. Sharp corners that would derail high speed services, tunnels that won't allow double deckers etc.

It's easier in the Middle East. If you can start from scratch at this point anno 2009, you're cruising.
I don't know if you are quite right. Take for instance the railway system in Israel. Now of course there was a historic one, mostly built by the Brits and some military railways by the ottomans. But these were destroyed and only from the 50ties on Israel began to slowly develop a new system. So today there is a railway system and it's working well. BUT it only connects today's centers and there are endless discussions, whether some remote places should be connected or not...

In comparison, e.g. Austria. Let's not go into much details, but many kilometers of existing railways have been closed down and given up. Yet there are still some small local railways left, that just witness some sort of renaissance. Of course, nobody would build such a railway anymore today, neither in Europe nor in the Middle East, now that HSR and so on is the name of the game. But some still exist and serve us well. That's a historic advantage. And it applies to most of Europe.

So long story short: The Middle East is building impressive rail and HSR projects, without many of the disadvantages that our old European system has. No doubt about that. But mostly they are connecting their metro areas and maybe harbours. I doubt that their system, their mesh of railways, will ever be as fine and long as the European one.

About Fyra: I think it's a quite interesting looking train. The design is unique and I think that's good.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 06:15 AM   #150
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I have to see what happens first: Fyra-trains running, or bankrupcy of HSA.

HSA (High Speed Alliance) is the company (90% NS, 10% KLM) which officially has won the concession, and will run the services on the HSL-Zuid. The marketing name used by HSA is NS Hispeed. They have been in financial difficulties before, because of the delays of the HSL-Zuid and the V250 trains.

There has been support from the Dutch government, but that support is being investigated by the EU. In a worst case scenario, HSA has to repay the government, which could eventually lead to HSA toppling over and going bankrupt.

I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. It would cause severe delays in making good use of the HSL-Zuid for domestic services; but given the current pricing level, the number of passengers and the desperate attempts NS will have to attempt to get people to board the trains, it might actually work out better if HSA would go bankrupt.

It would also open up other possibilities, such as moving the The Hague - Venlo intercity service (1900 series) to HSL-Zuid between Rotterdam and Breda. This is currently not possible as NS Reizigers (NS for Travellers) isn't allowed to use the HSL, and HSA isn't allowed to use the conventional network because of the various concessions for each of them.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 01:45 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
They do, actually. If you try to book a flight from Brussels to Paris on klm.com you will get a flight, it'll even have a flight number. However, you'll depart from ZYR which is the Brussels South Railway Station, the aircraft is a TGV.
I thought the remark referred to codesharing between railways. I understood the question as "will Fyra codeshare with Thalys". This is not something railways in Europe do.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 06:11 PM   #152
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Just a small something I've learnt today: the new railway section that's being laid out between Brussels and Mechelen (so towards Antwerp) will allow for speeds up to 200km/h, but it'll have to slow down to like 140km/h halfway due to the switching points towards Brussels Airport and later on when they leave the median of the E19. So all in all they'll hardly be riding 200km/h, but at least it'll be possible.

Greetings,
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Old May 30th, 2010, 08:16 PM   #153
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Code-sharing is unknown in the railway business, except for rail/air cooperation, however, in that case the air code is irrelevant for the railway operation. Trains always have a unique number (or "code" for that matter), even if they are operated by several companies. For example Railjets between Budapest and Munich, via Vienna, are operated first by MÁV Start, then by ÖBB PV and for the last part by DB Bahn. Even though ÖBB owns the trainssets, they are only the responsible operator for the Austrian section.

It's a little bit different with Open Access trains, e.g. DB-ÖBB-EC to Italy. Again, the trainsets are Austrian, but in Germany DB is the operator. In Austria ÖBB is the operator and in Italy officially a local railway company operates the train for legal reasons, even though it is operated under the DB-ÖBB brand. Nevertheless the train number is always the same.

However, it will be interesting to see what happens in the future, once the railteam alliance will be further developed and the service more integrated. By the way: Will Fyra be integrated into railteam?
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Old May 30th, 2010, 09:16 PM   #154
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It already is.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 11:38 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
It's a little bit different with Open Access trains, e.g. DB-ÖBB-EC to Italy. Again, the trainsets are Austrian, but in Germany DB is the operator. In Austria ÖBB is the operator and in Italy officially a local railway company operates the train for legal reasons, even though it is operated under the DB-ÖBB brand. Nevertheless the train number is always the same.
It happens quite often that a train gets a different number when it crosses
a border. Look on www.bahn.de for the night train between Bucarest and
Istanbul, for exemple... Sometimes national train numbering schemes are
so incompatible that it is impossible to keep the same train number for
the whole journey. A good example is with numbering schemes like in France,
where trains have odd numbers when travelling towards the capital city and
even numbers in the other direction. If two neighbouring countries both use
such a numbering scheme, there will be, unavoidably, a change of number at the border crossing.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 12:41 AM   #156
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Okay, I wasn't aware of that. It doesn't seem to happen between Austria, Germany and Switzerland though. At least I've never been aware of it.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 01:06 AM   #157
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I know in 2008 Air France-KLM had plans with Veolia to buy their own HSL-trains at Alstom. Passengers could choose between Paris-Amsterdam, if they would take the train or the plane. This construction with Veolia should had been in service in Januari 2010?
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Old May 31st, 2010, 09:19 AM   #158
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I know in 2008 Air France-KLM had plans with Veolia to buy their own HSL-trains at Alstom. Passengers could choose between Paris-Amsterdam, if they would take the train or the plane. This construction with Veolia should had been in service in Januari 2010?

It has been cancelled. Now Veolia is entering a partenership with Trenitalia, but does not intend to push up to Amsterdam.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 02:09 PM   #159
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I guess a strategic mistake on the HSL Zuid was to use just "improved" tracks from Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal. They should have built a brand new, mostly underground HSL line right into Amsterdam, and built a brand-new underground trainstation integrated with some of the future subways stations on the "North-South" line in Amsterdam, which is u/c.

Then you could have a more convenient place of arrival in Amsterdam for business users, and also run a faster service all the way. Domestic users could still connect at Schiphol train station.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 02:57 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I guess a strategic mistake on the HSL Zuid was to use just "improved" tracks from Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal. They should have built a brand new, mostly underground HSL line right into Amsterdam, and built a brand-new underground trainstation integrated with some of the future subways stations on the "North-South" line in Amsterdam, which is u/c.
What ?? That is about the only thing that was a logical decision made for the HSL. Coupling the HSL with the all problems that have occured on the "North-South" line would have made both projects even more expensive.

I doubt the horrible on-time statistics are caused by this conventional part of the route. When I rode the Fyra the train twice slowed to a 10 km/h crawl between Schiphol and Rotterdam.

Mistakes:
* ordering untested Italian trains instead of going with a proven design.
* having it run as separate entity instead of integrating it into the national Intercity network (or with Thalys).
* HSA overbidding on the contract.
* Way to expensive supplement and the ticket/reservation overhead for short distance travel.
* Low train frequency means the speed is not useful yet.
* going with the untested ECTS without any backup system, so that we are still limited to 160 km/h on the Amsterdam-Rotterdam section.
* expensive long tunnel under some empty fields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Then you could have a more convenient place of arrival in Amsterdam for business users, and also run a faster service all the way. Domestic users could still connect at Schiphol train station.
I think there are plans to make Amsterdam-Zuid(WTC) the Amsterdam terminal station in the future.

Last edited by JeroenMostert; May 31st, 2010 at 04:13 PM. Reason: spelling
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