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Old May 31st, 2010, 03:58 PM   #161
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I guess a strategic mistake on the HSL Zuid was to use just "improved" tracks from Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal. They should have built a brand new, mostly underground HSL line right into Amsterdam, and built a brand-new underground trainstation integrated with some of the future subways stations on the "North-South" line in Amsterdam, which is u/c.

Then you could have a more convenient place of arrival in Amsterdam for business users, and also run a faster service all the way. Domestic users could still connect at Schiphol train station.
Ofcourse, for that to be possible first a goose that lays golden eggs would have to be found...

The biggest mistake so far (in my opinion) has been _not_ integrating the services on the line in the domestic network.
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Old May 31st, 2010, 05:49 PM   #162
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Amsterdam Centraal will be ditched as HSA station when the new sidings near Duivendrecht are in operation. Planned for phased introduction of the Fyra service to Amsterdam South is somewhere during 2015/16.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 07:27 AM   #163
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Amsterdam Centraal will be ditched as HSA station when the new sidings near Duivendrecht are in operation. Planned for phased introduction of the Fyra service to Amsterdam South is somewhere during 2015/16.

When are they going to expand Amsterdam Zuid?
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Old June 7th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #164
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Does anyone have information on the deliver of new Ansaldo-Breda locos?
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Old June 7th, 2010, 03:53 PM   #165
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Does anyone have information on the deliver of new Ansaldo-Breda locos?

They're trainsets, not locomotives, and they currently are having a lot of problems. Three sets have been delivered so far, years late, and none of them are really ready for service. They will all have to go back to the factory in Italy for modifications to make them compliant with the regulations for the Dutch and Belgian networks.
These trains are really a failure of gigantic proportions. Lets hope Ansaldo Breda goes bankrupt soon, so nobody can be tempted in to buying trains from them again.
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Old June 7th, 2010, 05:04 PM   #166
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These trains are really a failure of gigantic proportions. Lets hope Ansaldo Breda goes bankrupt soon, so nobody can be tempted in to buying trains from them again.
Then what will happen to HSL-zuid and HSA ? Keep the current traxx trains ? How long will it take to get trains from a new supplier like Siemens ?
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Old June 7th, 2010, 07:55 PM   #167
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Then what will happen to HSL-zuid and HSA ? Keep the current traxx trains ? How long will it take to get trains from a new supplier like Siemens ?
Probably less then getting them from Ansaldo Breda.

Anyway, there actually quite a few alternatives. Once NMBS has enough class 18 you could run quite a decent service using them + I11 coaches.
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Old June 7th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #168
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Quote:
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Probably less then getting them from Ansaldo Breda.

Anyway, there actually quite a few alternatives. Once NMBS has enough class 18 you could run quite a decent service using them + I11 coaches.
Except that those I11 are on short supply already for high-speed services
on the Oostend-Brussels-Ličge service so they are certainty not available
in the quantities needed for a hourly service between Brussels and Amsterdam. And that's not even speaking about the dutch domestic
services that were also foreseen with the Ansaldo-Breda trainsets.

Refurbishing I6/I10 coaches and fitting them for 200 km/h might be a better
bet.

And one may also wonder how much time will still be needed to get the new
class 18 ready for revenue service... Buying "off the shelf" rather than
paper locs (like class 13) was supposed to enhance that aspect but it's
not very convincing...
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Old June 8th, 2010, 11:06 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
They're trainsets, not locomotives, and they currently are having a lot of problems. Three sets have been delivered so far, years late, and none of them are really ready for service. They will all have to go back to the factory in Italy for modifications to make them compliant with the regulations for the Dutch and Belgian networks.
These trains are really a failure of gigantic proportions. Lets hope Ansaldo Breda goes bankrupt soon, so nobody can be tempted in to buying trains from them again.
why did they choose those trains?

TGV producers are just at your door why you order Ansaldo..

why didn't they broke the contract
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Old June 8th, 2010, 12:14 PM   #170
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Quote:
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why did they choose those trains? TGV producers are just at your door why you order Ansaldo..
It was the cheapest offering on the tender.

Quote:
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why didn't they broke the contract
Breaking a contract can get very expensive very fast. This is a big contract. I'm not sure what the rules are and I think HSA can not get any money back.
So it looks like the HSA lawyers were incompetent as well.
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Old June 8th, 2010, 01:41 PM   #171
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It was the cheapest offering on the tender.
They didn't have to take the cheapest though.
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Old June 8th, 2010, 05:28 PM   #172
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The HSA contract with AnsaldoBreda doesn't seem to have escape clauses. Therefor they're stuck with AB.

Also, the Belgian 18 loco's (Eurosprinters from Siemens) will not be able to run in the Netherlands since they won't have ATB.
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Old June 8th, 2010, 10:53 PM   #173
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In my opinion, the Dutch and Belgian railway companies should follow these steps:

1) Impose a deadline to AnsaldoBreda: 5 trainsets should be fully available for revenue service by the end of this year (2010).
2) If AnsaldoBreda fails to meet this objective (what probably will be the case), go to court and ask cancellation of the contract. Reason: AB is not able to deliver the contracted products within a reasonable timeframe.
3) Make use of a part of the existing fleet of IRM-trainsets, which are prepared to equip with a transformer for 25 kV. Make them a.s.a.p. capable for 25kV and install ERTMS level 2 in the trainsets. This might take two years to get them certified and ready for service, but waiting for Ansaldo would take many more years.
4) Dissolve HSA/NS Hispeed.
5) Use the 25kV/ERTMS IRM-trainsets to run domestic intercity services (max 160 km/h) between Amsterdam and Breda, and further continuing to Eindhoven (2x/hour) or even Venlo (1x/hour). Additional intercity services could run between Amsterdam and Rotterdam (4x/hour) and between The Hague and Breda (2x/hour). The Belgium NMBS should introduce an hourly intercity between Brussels and Breda with Belgian equipment (Class 18+I11).
No additional fee should be required for the above mentioned intercities.
6) Buy new trainsets for the Benelux services (Amsterdam-Brussel) only. That would be ~ 8 trainsets, capable for 250 km/h. Continue with the current equipment untill the new trainsets are delivered.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 06:32 AM   #174
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3) Make use of a part of the existing fleet of IRM-trainsets, which are prepared to equip with a transformer for 25 kV. Make them a.s.a.p. capable for 25kV and install ERTMS level 2 in the trainsets. This might take two years to get them certified and ready for service, but waiting for Ansaldo would take many more years.
I thought that those IRM sets are not only prepared for accepting 25kV, but also for increasing their speed to 200kph.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 09:45 AM   #175
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That would be awesome to see: VIRM running on the HSL. And probably happily playing its bagpipe as well.

However, I don't expect this to happen: much money and effort has been put into AnsaldoBreda already, and modifying VIRM for 25 kV + ERTMS would mean that the trainsets would have to go through the entire homologation process again. This also includes testing what happens when a Thalys and 25 kV-IRM cross eachother at cruising speed, which would make a speed difference of about 460 km/h.

From what I have understood, the frame of the VIRM trainsets is capable of speeds up to 200 kph, but that it needs different bogies for that. I'm not sure about that, however.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 09:54 AM   #176
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From what I have understood, the frame of the VIRM trainsets is capable of speeds up to 200 kph, but that it needs different bogies for that. I'm not sure about that, however.
When the SBB upgraded it's EWIV stock for 200kph most of what was needed were different stabilisers for the bogies. No new bogies were installed.

But maybe they could ask Stadler. They've got a complete design for a 200kph capable double decker that they can start producing right away...
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Old June 9th, 2010, 12:49 PM   #177
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NMBS has upgraded a few of its I10/I6 stock to 200 km/h and the most important changes are the addition of stabilisers for the bogies and the enhancement of the doors, to withstand a crossing with a Thalys at 300 km/h (relative speed between the two is 500 km/h)
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Old June 9th, 2010, 12:56 PM   #178
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I'm not sure they will offer regular Intercity services on the HSL, without any supplement. That would be the death kiss on the HSA and, more important, on the prospect of any other segregated high-speed line in the Netherlands for the foreseeable future.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 02:40 PM   #179
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In my opinion, HSA should be dissolved. It wasn't the first choice of NS to start a subsidiary for the HSL. They initially made a plan something like I posted yesterday, but it was rejected by former Minister of Transportation Netelenbos (Labor Party). She required NS to start a subsidiary and to strictly separate the operations on the HSL and the normal railway operations. That was an insane decision. The Netherlands is just to small to operate a stand-alone HSL which is competing with domestic air travel (unlike France of Germany), while the number of international passengers isn't favourable either (unlike Belgium).

The market is different in Holland. The potential passengers travel a quite short distance compared to other HSL-lines. I would argue about 95 % of all passengers travel less than 300 kilometers; those people won't need a high speed service like the Thalys; they need an improved domestic intercity service.

The Netherlands therefore needs high speed lines which are fully integrated in the national intercity railwaysystem. In those circumstances, any stand-alone HSL is doomed to be a failure. The imposed separation between highspeed and intercity is the main reason for the problems with the HSL.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 04:00 PM   #180
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However, I don't expect this to happen: much money and effort has been put into AnsaldoBreda already, and modifying VIRM for 25 kV + ERTMS would mean that the trainsets would have to go through the entire homologation process again.
Modifying VIRM needs to happen sometime anyway. The long term plan is to switch the whole network to ETCS and 25 kV. I think Amsterdam-Utrecht already has ETCS available. And its overhead-wire is ready for 25 kV. The same thing is true for the Hanzelijn that is now in progress. For Vmax 200 km/h we need both ETCS and 25 kV.

I think the best investment would be to upgrade more existing lines by fixing any slow parts and improve Vmax to 200 km/h (like "Traject Oost": Utrecht - Germany) and not build separate HSL lines. Not sure what already will be done for the "IC train every 10 minutes" project.
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