Canadian stadiums

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Kappa21

Rios was right!

About what?

[Kappa21]

Originally Posted by isaidso

About what?

Former Blue Jays, Alex Rios on his opening game in Toronto was interviewed about leaving the team and what not with a Chicago area newspaper. He basically stated that Baseball is dead in Toronto (or Canada) and the team should move since we never had a major MLB expansion in a long time when record crowds have been coming to the games down south.

http://www.torontolife.com/daily/inf...aving-toronto/

I hate to agree with him in part, because we never really find a good root for our baseball in the city. Bad Management both throughout the Marketing and Branding of the Jays and also the ownership have sunk. Promises by J.P Riccardi and now the new young guy doesn't prove much....

The main problem regardless if Toronto is first or last is that they need to fill the seats.
Jacking up the price, refusing to sell me (their #1) fan the Unlimited Pass and then asking why only 5,000 fans showed up to the game tonight is no reason to cuss...... The team only gets fans when they win and thats fair, but we somehow forget that the MLB has teams that are not winning and still getting good number of seats. Why not the jays?

[Kappa21]

Ooo and I said he is right because Canada has no real infrastructure for the Summer game and we never really thought about expanding it or what not.... not even in the hot days of the two teams that played in Canada (1985-1995) I call it the "Golden Decade/Lost Decade"

[koolio]

You are right in that outside of BC, baseball is on a very noticeable decline in the rest of Canada.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Kappa21

The team only gets fans when they win and thats fair, but we somehow forget that the MLB has teams that are not winning and still getting good number of seats. Why not the jays?

It has to do with culture.

Baseball, like football, has been supplanted by soccer in Toronto. These sports were once culturally important to Torontonians, but have been left to wither without any meaningful or strategic attempts to stem the decline. Baseball needed support and nurturing at the grass roots level, but the Blue Jays and the baseball bodies have largely ignored the sport in this market. They simply expected baseball to always be fine without contributing back to the sports continued development in this market.

Society only support sports teams, win or lose, if they are central to its culture. Baseball is no longer central to Ontario's culture in the way that it is in other parts of Canada. It's why hockey will always be supported in Toronto, football will always be supported in Saskatchewan, and why basketball will always be supported in Nova Scotia, regardless of how their teams do.

Originally Posted by koolio

You are right in that outside of BC, baseball is on a very noticeable decline in the rest of Canada.

I'd say outside of BC, Manitoba, and the Maritimes it's in trouble. In these other places, baseball has been popular for a long time and continues to grow.

[Kappa21]

Originally Posted by koolio

You are right in that outside of BC, baseball is on a very noticeable decline in the rest of Canada.

So tell B.C to grow some balls (dont take it rude....) and expand a team into B.C area.........

Vancouver can use some teams..question is...would it be viable?

Originally Posted by isaidso

It has to do with culture.

Baseball, like football, has been supplanted by soccer in Toronto. These sports were once culturally important to Torontonians, but have been left to wither without any meaningful or strategic attempts to stem the decline. Baseball needed support and nurturing at the grass roots level, but the Blue Jays and the baseball bodies have largely ignored the sport in this market. They simply expected baseball to always be fine without contributing back to the sports continued development in this market.

Society only support sports teams, win or lose, if they are central to its culture. Baseball is no longer central to Ontario's culture in the way that it is in other parts of Canada. It's why hockey will always be supported in Toronto, football will always be supported in Saskatchewan, and why basketball will always be supported in Nova Scotia, regardless of how their teams do.

Just because there is 30,000 seats controlled by who knows how many people in the ACC for a Leaf Season tickets doesnt necessarily mean that it is successful.

Yes, the psychology behind Toronto and Hockey stems from our culture and the fact that in the winter time its the only sport we have other than Basketball which is not a threat. But look at a typical Saturday night in Canada. People got nothing to do than to watch hockey in Canada. You basically watch hockey from 7pm til 10pm and in that time you have dinner/snack and beer which is why alot of branding and marketing communication goes towards the Beer Barons of our land (Molson/Labatt). You dont see Hockey at Sundays...hardly in Toronto.

The Jays never really want to compete and fans arent as easy to sort out as Leaf fans are. So that creates problems on ways to market. Its hard to bring in Beer/Alcohol sponsors to the Blue Jays when 67-80% of the fans in the stadium are minors. Remember, before the Jays got sold to Rogers (whom we hate....) they were owned by Labatt and Interbrewers. So there was the same connection on ways to brand the team better....today Rogers would be more concerned with the Real Estate value of the skydome vs. the value of the jays.

May I also mention that the wows and awwws of the skydome went down. 20 Years ago it was the stadium. You had big acts, big games, all stars and major events....
today its another stadium and it sucks to say this..but its probably in the top 10 of oldest stadiums around in the MLB.

Do the jays want a new stadium? One like Minnesota where its a full open ball park?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Kappa21

Just because there is 30,000 seats controlled by who knows how many people in the ACC for a Leaf Season tickets doesnt necessarily mean that it is successful.

It's more like 15,000 controlled seats, and I agree with you. Toronto is a massively under served market by the NHL and the sport is declining due to neglect. It's falling from an extremely high perch so everything looks fine on the surface, but other sports are slowly pecking away at hockey's utter dominance of the Toronto sports market.

Having only the Leafs in Toronto has damaged the sport in this city. Huge segments of the population have turned to other sports due to the Leafs being out of reach for most people. There really should be 3 or 4 teams in Toronto.

Originally Posted by Kappa21

Yes, the psychology behind Toronto and Hockey stems from our culture and the fact that in the winter time its the only sport we have other than Basketball which is not a threat. But look at a typical Saturday night in Canada. People got nothing to do than to watch hockey in Canada. You basically watch hockey from 7pm til 10pm and in that time you have dinner/snack and beer which is why alot of branding and marketing communication goes towards the Beer Barons of our land (Molson/Labatt). You dont see Hockey at Sundays...hardly in Toronto.

The Jays never really want to compete and fans arent as easy to sort out as Leaf fans are. So that creates problems on ways to market. Its hard to bring in Beer/Alcohol sponsors to the Blue Jays when 67-80% of the fans in the stadium are minors. Remember, before the Jays got sold to Rogers (whom we hate....) they were owned by Labatt and Interbrewers. So there was the same connection on ways to brand the team better....today Rogers would be more concerned with the Real Estate value of the skydome vs. the value of the jays.

May I also mention that the wows and awwws of the skydome went down. 20 Years ago it was the stadium. You had big acts, big games, all stars and major events....
today its another stadium and it sucks to say this..but its probably in the top 10 of oldest stadiums around in the MLB.

Do the jays want a new stadium? One like Minnesota where its a full open ball park?

I hate Rogers too. They're killing the Jays in the same way that they've killed the Argonauts. They don't care about these sports or Canadian culture, they're simply interested in maximizing profits.

I remember paying $2 to see the Jays for 500 level (upper bowl) tickets back in the early 90s. It's $12-$14 now? If they're really serious about re-connecting with people, they need to lower prices. More so than the other sports, this is a family oriented outing and there are 81 dates a year where you have to fill a stadium.

500 level tickets should get slashed to $5 all season then re-evaluate things next season. At this point, a full stadium is more important than maximizing profits. They need to get Torontonians back in the habit of going out to the ball game. That means contemplating going to a game every week, not the once in a blue moon that happens these days.

Skydome? Sure the novelty has worn off, but it's still a great baseball stadium when it's full. If one really wants old school baseball, there's always the Toronto Maple Leafs who play out at Christie Pits. It's free, and you get to sit on real grass right out on the banks of a hill! How wonderful is that????

From the world's first documented baseball game in Beachville, Ontario back in 1838, to the formation of the London Tecumsehs in 1868, to the founding of the Toronto Maple Leaf baseball team in 1896, there has been baseball here. Toronto has had baseball for over a century. People seem to think that baseball starts and ends with the Jays.

Side note: what's true in Ontario, isn't necessarily true in the rest of Canada. Hockey is king in most places, but not all. I grew up in a province where college football and college basketball were what mattered. Hockey? It was of interest, but took a back seat to the first two.

[Kappa21]

Originally Posted by isaidso

It's more like 15,000 controlled seats, and I agree with you. Toronto is a massively under served market by the NHL and the sport is declining due to neglect. It's falling from an extremely high perch so everything looks fine on the surface, but other sports are slowly pecking away at hockey's utter dominance of the Toronto sports market.

Having only the Leafs in Toronto has damaged the sport in this city. Huge segments of the population have turned to other sports due to the Leafs being out of reach for most people. There really should be 3 or 4 teams in Toronto.

The way the Leafs function is basically this: they know they can sell out their games, they know that they have the strongest and most viable market in Hockey, yet they refuse to put in the right coordination and make a winning team.

Regardless of a winning team or not, its really difficult for anyone to get tickets and the disconnection between the fans and the team is growing. I never went to see the Leafs in Toronto ever. My first game was actually this season when I went to NYC to see them lose 7-2 in MSG to the Rangers. Most willing fans will travel to Buffalo or Detroit to see the Leafs or just see Hockey in general.

Yea, ofcourse there should be 2 more teams in Toronto or the Horseshoe Valley/Southern Ontario. The problem is that no one is willing to budge and the NHL knows that the market in our area will get tighter and it wont just be the leafs who will suffer. It will be the Red Wings, Sabres and even the Senators who might get the brunt of the raw end of the stick.

While I would say that other sports are trying to gain momentum in Toronto, I would be cautious with the MLS because in the end your going to see half ass, semi-amateur players play for another marketed sport by the MLSE (sp?)

I hate Rogers too. They're killing the Jays in the same way that they've killed the Argonauts. They don't care about these sports or Canadian culture, they're simply interested in maximizing profits.

Didnt know Rogers ran the Argos....
But Argos can stay around. They get a good number of people coming to their games.

I remember paying $2 to see the Jays for 500 section tickets back in the early 90s. It's $12-$14 now? If they're really serious about re-connecting with people, they need to lower prices. More so than the other sports, this is a family oriented outing and there are 81 dates a year where you have to fill a stadium.

500 level tickets should get slashed to $5 all season then re-evaluate things next season. At this point, a full stadium is more important than maximizing profits. They need to get Torontonians back in the habit of going out to the ball game once a week.

Skydome? Sure the novelty has worn off, but it's still a great baseball stadium when it's full. If one really wants old school baseball, there's always the Toronto Maple Leafs who play out at Christie Pits. It's free, and you get to sit on real grass right out on the banks of a hill! How wonderful is that????

From the world's first documented baseball game in Beachville, Ontario back in 1838, to the formation of the London Tecumsehs in 1868, to the founding of the Toronto Maple Leaf baseball team in 1896, there has been baseball here. Toronto has had baseball for over a century. People seem to think that baseball starts and ends with the Jays.

Its also gives alot of support for the players. Look at a player like Travis Snider. Young and full of potential. Yet, he plays for only 5000 people a night. That really takes the juice off many players.

This year is frustrating to say the least. I tried to get the Toronto Star Pack which allows you to go to all of the 81 home games. Called them up like a week before they started and they told me that they sold out of them. How?!?! They even have a cluase in the card which tells you that you may not get tickets and its first come first serve. So does it make sense if they sell 500 passes or 50,000? Would make more sense if people come from Barrie or St. Catherine's to see the jays and are told its sold out in the 500 then they may purchase a reasonable ticket.

I went to the game vs. Boston and they didnt get alot of people. Only about 7000 or so. Was pretty depressing. I mean, I wasnt there when the jays were good in 92/93 but I doubt they sold out like they did. My first jays game was in 1994 before the strike and i remember going and it was just packed....and that was a 1pm game.

Side note: what's true in Ontario, isn't necessarily true in the rest of Canada. Hockey is king in most places, but not all. I grew up in a province where college football and college basketball were what mattered. Hockey? It was of interest, but took a back seat to the first two.

Quebecors like Football
BC is into Soccer and Baseball....

I know that we are focused only on Hockey, but we gotta start making ways to diversify and get people into other sports. Did you ever see the map of how the jays are being broken down in Canada?

Most of the Maritimes only get BoSox and BC gets the Mariners....

[Plumber73]

Can someone tell me what the story is with TFC and their attendance? I hear sellouts, but I always see half empty stands, at least with the far main stand. So is it a case that people buy tickets and don't show up?

[Kappa21]

Originally Posted by Plumber73

Can someone tell me what the story is with TFC and their attendance? I hear sellouts, but I always see half empty stands, at least with the far main stand. So is it a case that people buy tickets and don't show up?

Its a heavily marketed team which makes it a hot commodity in Toronto where the city is booming but some segments of the sports market are not. This one succeed because there are so many people who want to see soccer mainly the immigrants who makes Toronto their home (Italians, Portuguese, Latins, Eastern Europeans, Asians..etc..) and also the WASPS (Scotts, English, Irish, Germans...).

So they got a good following for their sport.
They're games sell out very fast and its impossible to get tickets...I have been to one game and it was sold out, but it didnt look that packed. Its also a smaller stadium so tickets are scarce.

I dont know what the hype is about. Just soccer of a team that is representing Toronto. Other than that, they are mostly semi-amateur players playing one another....

they also bring half teams to play against TFC (Aston Villa, Everton, Porto, etc..)

[Plumber73]

Originally Posted by Kappa21

Its a heavily marketed team which makes it a hot commodity in Toronto where the city is booming but some segments of the sports market are not. This one succeed because there are so many people who want to see soccer mainly the immigrants who makes Toronto their home (Italians, Portuguese, Latins, Eastern Europeans, Asians..etc..) and also the WASPS (Scotts, English, Irish, Germans...).

So they got a good following for their sport.
They're games sell out very fast and its impossible to get tickets...I have been to one game and it was sold out, but it didnt look that packed. Its also a smaller stadium so tickets are scarce.

I dont know what the hype is about. Just soccer of a team that is representing Toronto. Other than that, they are mostly semi-amateur players playing one another....

they also bring half teams to play against TFC (Aston Villa, Everton, Porto, etc..)

I guess my main question is if it is selling out, why are the stands half full? It has looked that way on TV since the second season or so. The only full sections I see is the big end zone section. Is everyone buying hot dogs or going to the washroom? What's the deal?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Kappa21

The way the Leafs function is basically this: they know they can sell out their games, they know that they have the strongest and most viable market in Hockey, yet they refuse to put in the right coordination and make a winning team.

They basically don't have to do a bloody thing to promote hockey or engage with the public because they know it will always sell out. They are abusing their monopoly to the detriment of hockey in southern Ontario.

Originally Posted by Kappa21

I never went to see the Leafs in Toronto ever.

Me either. I gave up on the NHL 20 years ago. I'll passionately support the national teams, but couldn't care less about this league any more. They've turned their nose up at Canada, so I returned the favour.

Originally Posted by Kappa21

While I would say that other sports are trying to gain momentum in Toronto, I would be cautious with the MLS because in the end your going to see half ass, semi-amateur players play for another marketed sport by the MLSE (sp?)

Toronto FC will do fine because of the massive immigrant community and the fact that non-hockey sports fans in Toronto will support en masse if it's considered cool and glamourous.

Originally Posted by Kappa21

Didnt know Rogers ran the Argos....
But Argos can stay around. They get a good number of people coming to their games.

The Argonauts are the Rogers Centre's #1 football client, yet heavily promote the Bills. Staff will kick any Argo fans out of the building if they have anti Bills t-shirts or banners with them. They don't even put Argonaut billboards up on the side of their building to promote their #1 football tenant. Only Bills billboards are visible. It's infuriating! Rogers is basically trying to kill the Argonauts and a century of Canadian culture so they can bring in the US product. The Argos are hopping mad, but have no other suitable facility to go to.

The Argonauts only get about 28,000/game. That's absolutely abysmal for a city the size of Toronto. Regina manages over 30,000/game with only 200,000 in the entire metropolitan area. A city the size of Toronto should be able to support 2 teams pulling in 90,000 each. If you're into football, you go when the games are on because there are only 9 games all season. That's one reason why football draws large crowds each game.

Originally Posted by Kappa21

This year is frustrating to say the least. I tried to get the Toronto Star Pack which allows you to go to all of the 81 home games. Called them up like a week before they started and they told me that they sold out of them.

Good grief! Sold out? They're 30,000-40,000 empty seats in there.

Originally Posted by Kappa21

Quebecors like Football
BC is into Soccer and Baseball....

I know that we are focused only on Hockey, but we gotta start making ways to diversify and get people into other sports. Did you ever see the map of how the jays are being broken down in Canada?

Most of the Maritimes only get BoSox and BC gets the Mariners....

I agree that it's not optimal to be so dominated by hockey. What if you don't like hockey? Thankfully, hockey isn't all dominant everywhere in Canada.

I did see the Jays map of Canada. The Maritimes certainly is a market split with the Red Sox. I lived down there for 20 years, and before the 90s, the Sox were definitely the most followed team. Even today, there are huge numbers of Sox fans there. When the Sox won the WS, not only did the trophy tour New England, but it toured Nova Scotia too.

In Halifax the sports breakdown is as follows:

#1 College football (Saint Mary's, Acadia, and X)
#2 A big log jam: College basketball (Dal, SMU, Acadia, X, some Cape Breton fans too), Major League Baseball (Jays/Red Sox), and Canadian Hockey League (Halifax Mooseheads) all receive about equal support and interest.

It's a pretty optimal split for a Canadian city and ideal for me. College football is definitely #1 though.

[Kappa21]

Originally Posted by Plumber73

I guess my main question is if it is selling out, why are the stands half full? It has looked that way on TV since the second season or so. The only full sections I see is the big end zone section. Is everyone buying hot dogs or going to the washroom? What's the deal?

I am not sure about that one....
It may have to do with bad weather sometimes.

The game i went to was pretty shitty weather.
Regardless, from what I can tell you, getting tickets to a TFC game is impossible....

The last game which they had vs. the Montreal Impacts of the CPSL was last week. I went to see the Jays and I was wearing my beloved soccer team, Inter Milan and the fans were giving me a hard time! But on all, once i hit the main core of Toronto there was more TFC fans around than Blue Jay fans!

[Kappa21]

They also have a high number of season ticket holders for a small stadium, so you can guess that many season ticket holders dont go to each home game sometime.........

thats my guess

[AndrewJM3D]

The Rogers Centre was awesome when it was full.............17 years ago.

image hosted on flickr

[Overground]

From what I've read there isn't any attendance issues with TFC....still in the top three I think. Last week's match on tv vs Seattle showed some empty seats due to crappy weather and quite a few people were under covered areas or didn't show up, therefore the attendance was 18,394. The home match before that against Philly was 21,978.

To touch on baseball in BC. Not sure about outside of the city but I don't see it popular here at all in Van. I always thought of it as more an eastern thing or small towns. Nat Bailey does have the single A baseball team play but there's not much popularity in it it seems. Not like the 90s or before when there was the AAA team and the hype of the Blue Jays. I just feel that baseball is on the way out. This could be right down to changing demographics and that void will be filled with "association football". It's getting huge and it's almost impossible for people to ignore the global game. The Caps will only excel it further starting next year.

[aastra]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Baseball Stadiums over 5,000 capacity

01.Toronto (Skydome): 49,539
02.Montreal (Olympic Stadium): 43,739
03.Ottawa (Ottawa Baseball Stadium): 10,332
04.Edmonton (Telus Field): 10,098
05.Victoria (Royal Athletic Park): 9,247

06.Winnipeg (CanWest Park): 7,481
07.Vancouver (Nat Bailey Stadium): 6,500
08.Calgary (Foothills Stadium): 6,000
09.London (Labatt Park): 5,200
10.Toronto (Monarch Park Stadium): 5,000

11.St. John's (St. Patrick's Park): 5,000

Baseball specific stadiums in bold.

9,200 for baseball at Royal Athletic Park? That seems way too high. The Victoria Seals baseball team claims Royal Athletic Park seats 4,247 for baseball:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Seals

[Plumber73]

Originally Posted by Overground

From what I've read there isn't any attendance issues with TFC....still in the top three I think. Last week's match on tv vs Seattle showed some empty seats due to crappy weather and quite a few people were under covered areas or didn't show up, therefore the attendance was 18,394. The home match before that against Philly was 21,978.

I don't know if weather is the main problem, as other sections are completely full. Check just about any home game from last year and you'll see what I'm talking about. Check out the games throughout this season as well. A Couple examples.

2:06 in.


17 seconds in


It just looks bad, especially when everyone is saying the games are selling out. Clearly not everyone shows up for whatever reason... which to me is an attendance issue. That's something that would really bug me if I'm one of those people who can't get tickets and I see a few thousand people not sitting in their seats.

[Overground]

I think I'm always on the same page as you dude. But those two vids aren't a good example of attendance. The first one is in right around halftime so a lot of people have already legged it to the toilets or beer. The second one is at the beginning of the match before everyone has got to their seats. Also the East stand has the white maple leaf seat configuration so it enhances the view of what looks like 'empty seats'.

You may be right but from what I've read at various sources and watching on tv, the games are quite close to capacity. Maybe it's one of those things when you're watching and you remember empty seats at the point in the match like I mentioned above.

[Plumber73]

Originally Posted by Overground

I think I'm always on the same page as you dude. But those two vids aren't a good example of attendance. The first one is in right around halftime so a lot of people have already legged it to the toilets or beer. The second one is at the beginning of the match before everyone has got to their seats. Also the East stand has the white maple leaf seat configuration so it enhances the view of what looks like 'empty seats'.

You may be right but from what I've read at various sources and watching on tv, the games are quite close to capacity. Maybe it's one of those things when you're watching and you remember empty seats at the point in the match like I mentioned above.

Look at other points in the video. 20 minutes into the game it looks almost the same - half full. Anyways, if it is people going to the shitter or getting a beer, it just shows how little they care for the game. Next few home games, have a closer look. Maybe I'm hallucinating, but I doubt it.