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Old September 7th, 2009, 09:01 PM   #81
koolio
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By the way, here are some of the examples that I'm referring to:

Sprint Center - Kansas City


Arena Zagreb - Croatia


O2 World - Berlin


Intrust Bank Arena - Wichita
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Old September 7th, 2009, 10:42 PM   #82
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What they're doing with the ACC now is a separate topic of discussion.
How is it a separate discussion? Some of the examples you provided would look ridiculous in the downtown core and would never fit on a grid city layout. The examples you provided need more space and would need to be situated away from most transit lines. Also, I can't think of any art deco malls around, so what mall do you think the ACC looks like?


Intrust Bank Arena - Wichita is just plain tacky and will look out of date in no time.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 01:06 AM   #83
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MSG is a dump.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 01:34 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJM3D View Post
How is it a separate discussion? Some of the examples you provided would look ridiculous in the downtown core and would never fit on a grid city layout. The examples you provided need more space and would need to be situated away from most transit lines. Also, I can't think of any art deco malls around, so what mall do you think the ACC looks like?


Intrust Bank Arena - Wichita is just plain tacky and will look out of date in no time.
It is a separate topic of discussion because the renovations have not been finished. We'll judge how it looks when the repackaged ACC is completely finished. However, as it stands right now, it is an absolutely bland structure and no amount of faux art deco style facade is going to change that.

Either way, I have a hard time believing why anything but a generic big box looking arena would seem ridiculous within the fabric of a downtown core. Those arenas that I posted would look as out of place as the ROM or the AGO do in their respective locales (maybe even less). And as far as I know, the Sprint Center IS in the downtown core of Kansas City so that does not seem to be an issue over there.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 03:48 AM   #85
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It's not right in the downtown core but just outside of it. And how is the ACC faux art deco? A perfect place for the arenas you've shown would be in Mississauga.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 04:36 AM   #86
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ACC is not faux Art Deco; it preserved some of the walls from the old Post Office. Granted, it was not the finest quality example of Art Deco bas reliefs (in fact some of them were a touch, well.. "peculiar").... but it was a building of some local historical significance.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 05:12 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolio View Post
By the way, here are some of the examples that I'm referring to:

Sprint Center - Kansas City
............
It is ironic that some of the best NA arenas are getting built in places that do not even have teams (Tulsa, K.C, Wichita).

I have never been to the ACC but to me it looks like it is in the upper tier. Dignified but unremarkable looking on the outside and modern conventional standard on the inside. That is a very undistinguished tier though and NBA/NHL teams in the 90's/00's seemed to lack real creativity and uniqueness when building their new stadiums. A real missed opportunity almost across the board.

I gotta disagree with xzmattzx, I think it is a major plus that the ACC built it in the middle of an urban hood without many lots of dead space around it. To me it makes stadiums and arenas feel more intimate and its nice to be able to walk across the street and get a meal or have a beer after a game. Perhaps it takes away if people want to tail gate but that is not a very big traditional for basketball/hockey anywhere I know of.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 04:28 PM   #88
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The area around may have been one of the worst but not anymore. We don't tail gate for NHL/NBA and I'd rather have high rises then parking lots surround it. As for the arena itself being underwhelming, you do realize that 70% of the arena is below grade? FYI they're building a plaza on it's west side for gatherings.

We also don't need mass amounts of parking seeing that a large percentage use TTC an GO transit to get to events. Toronto is one of the few markets where all of it's sports venues are on mass transit rail and subway lines. Oh no, I don't have acres of parking lots to weave through to get in the game spirit. What we have is refined and it works well with the fabric of our city.

Also you can't compare arenas to stadiums, the scale of the two are way off.The ACC will never have the presence of The Rogers Dome but it fulfills it's roll perfectly.

I've been to MSG and have to say the experience was awesome even though the building itself inside and out looks like it should be torn down.

It tells a lot about your architectural taste when you come on here and say this is better then the ACC.

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I don't think that I was clear enough on my complaints. The arena's architecture itself is fine, but is nothing special. By the way, your picture of the Wachovia Center is of what would be considered the back, if there is a back to it. I could make the Air Canada Centre look ugly by showing a picture of the side facing Union Station, but I'm not concerned with that.

My complaint is about how the arena fits into its surroundings and how it gives off stature and prominence. Hopefully some of my pictures will help me explain myself better.

Here what the Air Canada Centre looked like in April 2007. The area wasn't developed like it is, and so you could see the arena from down the street. The arena sticks out from its surroundings, leading the viewer to sense that the building is important or houses important events or people. Signage and pictures and other stuff help to further indicate the purpose of the building.



Here is the arena today, with one picture from about the same spot, and one closer to the arena. The arena looks just like the countless glassy (and uninspiring) condos and offices that surround it. The only thing that differentiates the arena from other buildings is that it's shorter. Where is the signage? Why is the arena hidden from view like so? This is what I don't like about it. It is not given the prominence that arenas in other cities geet, byu the way that it is kept out of view by other buildings.





Compare it to the Maple Leaf Gardens. The Maple Leaf gardens is built right in the middle of a neighborhood, but the size of the building, architecture, signage, and celebration (for lack of a better word) let everyone know that the building is more important than its neighbors.





Also, compare the Air Canada Centre to two other arenas that I have pictures of: Nationwide Arena in Columbus and the Verizon Center in Washington.

The "front" of Nationwide Arena is set back away from the street, similar to what has been done with the Air Canada Centre, and Nationwide Arena also has infill around it, as well as one historic building. Yet, the arena is bigger than the other buildings, and it clearly is the dominant building on the block.





The Verizon Center had to work with less space, so it is up against the street. Despite being crowded into a small city block and having buildings surrounding it on other blocks or even on the same block (including a Smithsonian building across the street, where the first picture was taken from), the Verizon Center stands out amongst the other buildings or from the street.





Finally, while baseball and football require different venues than basketball and hockey, as you mentioned, the Rogers Centre is not overpowered by other buildings like the Air Canada Centre. This pictures is from the exact same spot as the first picture, just in the opposite direction. While the CN Tower sits next to the stadium, the stadium still has prominence over the surroundings. The only other buildings nearby are the roundhouse and some condos down the street.

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Old September 8th, 2009, 05:43 PM   #89
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I'm confused though.... don't you want a stadium to be in the middle of a heavily populated area? Suburban arenas are bound to have more room around them, but everyone has to jump in a car and drive to see events.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 06:09 PM   #90
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You say you don't like arenas that look like malls........The Verizon Center looks like a mall to me. Most people don't need the arena to scream "Hey look at me!" Most know of it's importance without it needing to be gaudy or garish. And even the ACC's former ass end looks 10 times better the the back side of the Wachovia Center. The Air Canada Centre has signage on it's front Side (Bay Street). People in this city don't need huge neon signs for them to know the importance of the building. Also, how ridiculous would it look down there if we had to stadiums fighting for attention based on scale and architecture? The fact this blends in so well with it's surroundings makes this the perfect example of how a downtown arena should work. If it's not flashy or blingy enough for you yet wait until the screens are lit up. The ACC was built below grade and was never meant to over power the existing Canada Post deco base. It was also built with the intentions of being surrounded by office and residential. Why build over the top architecture if it's only going to be hemmed in? And the public square that they are currently working on will become one the best gathering destinations for sports fans in the city. I won't be surprised if it becomes almost as popular as Dundas Square once all is said and done.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 09:52 PM   #91
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I'm confused though.... don't you want a stadium to be in the middle of a heavily populated area? Suburban arenas are bound to have more room around them, but everyone has to jump in a car and drive to see events.
Urban arenas are perfectly fine. I like when urban arenas stand out amongst all of the other buildings surrounding it.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 10:27 PM   #92
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You say you don't like arenas that look like malls........The Verizon Center looks like a mall to me. Most people don't need the arena to scream "Hey look at me!" Most know of it's importance without it needing to be gaudy or garish. And even the ACC's former ass end looks 10 times better the the back side of the Wachovia Center. The Air Canada Centre has signage on it's front Side (Bay Street). People in this city don't need huge neon signs for them to know the importance of the building. Also, how ridiculous would it look down there if we had to stadiums fighting for attention based on scale and architecture? The fact this blends in so well with it's surroundings makes this the perfect example of how a downtown arena should work. If it's not flashy or blingy enough for you yet wait until the screens are lit up. The ACC was built below grade and was never meant to over power the existing Canada Post deco base. It was also built with the intentions of being surrounded by office and residential. Why build over the top architecture if it's only going to be hemmed in? And the public square that they are currently working on will become one the best gathering destinations for sports fans in the city. I won't be surprised if it becomes almost as popular as Dundas Square once all is said and done.
I still think it looks undistinctive, and it's crowded in too much. There's nothing that makes it stand out from the cookie-cutter condos on all sides of it. The plaza that is apparently being built is too crowded in. If it was given more space in place of the condos on the western side, then I think it would've been much, much nicer. Since arenas are gathering places for people of the city and even the region, they should have some type of archtecture or design or landmark or setting that makes it stand out and indicate that. It's not much different than having a city hall or courthouse or church stand out to display the roles that they have in society.

The other side of the building looks much better, but my experiences at the arena led me to believe that the side on York Street is the front of the building, and the side on Bay Street is not the "primary" side. I don't even know if there are doors for fans to enter through on that side. If that were used as the front, and the parking lot across the street was a plaza for fans to gather, then I think that it would be several times better than what is on the other side.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 11:55 PM   #93
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If you had any idea how cold and blustery it can be down there during the regular NHL/NBA season you'd understand that large open spaces would just be large empty voids. By creating a somewhat enclosed square it will no doubt become a much more used area year round. There's nothing I like more then finding myself in a downtown area where I feel completely surrounded by the city. The lack of open space and the mass of structure around me is what I will appreciate most when this retrofit is completed. This will possibly be one of the most vibrant entrances to any arena in North America when complete. A place to hang out even when venue itself sits empty. FYI, the Air Canada Centre is the 11th busiest sports venue in North America so it's rarely empty. I'll take a refined hidden away infill building over an in your face single use structure that does little to fit into the urban fabric. When the ACC is closed it still acts as a major artery for commuters as part of the cities vast and ever expanding P.A.T.H system. Perhaps to you as an outsider you don't get it, we don't need flare to know where things are in this city or to mark thier importance.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 11:59 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xzmattzx View Post
I don't even know if there are doors for fans to enter through on that side. If that were used as the front, and the parking lot across the street was a plaza for fans to gather, then I think that it would be several times better than what is on the other side.

Yes there are doors on that side. And again, if that lot was turned into a plaza it would be a waste of space. That land is zoned for office use and a possible 1000 footer one day. Our fans like to go to dinner downtown, head to the game and then after hit bars and pubs. We don't like to hand out in parking lots drinking out of the trunks of our cars. It's just not part of the CDN NHL/NBA scene. That land is of far to much value to set it aside for a bunch of rowdy drunk fans that will rarely use it.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 12:29 AM   #95
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I understand the desire for an arena or stadium to invoke a sense of excitement when you walk up to it, but I think the ACC does that. Once the video screen is up, and the search lights are on at the same time, it will be quite dramatic. Getting just a glimpse of the arena at the end of a street canyon is the best enticement really. It heightens ones curiosity and draws you towards it.

My biggest beef with arenas and stadiums is that they often create 'dead' zones. This problem has been over come by the very fact that it is part of a street grid and surrounded by a lot of density. This area will not look deserted when there is no game on.

The ACC is successful both by contributing to the vibrancy of the area, and in creating a buzz. Let's also keep in mind that the facade of the ACC isn't a generic plastic or concrete box like so many other arenas. The old facade was preserved. It's a handsome building from the outside.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 03:43 AM   #96
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I understand the desire for an arena or stadium to invoke a sense of excitement when you walk up to it, but I think the ACC does that. Once the video screen is up, and the search lights are on at the same time, it will be quite dramatic. Getting just a glimpse of the arena at the end of a street canyon is the best enticement really. It heightens ones curiosity and draws you towards it.

My biggest beef with arenas and stadiums is that they often create 'dead' zones. This problem has been over come by the very fact that it is part of a street grid and surrounded by a lot of density. This area will not look deserted when there is no game on.

The ACC is successful both by contributing to the vibrancy of the area, and in creating a buzz. Let's also keep in mind that the facade of the ACC isn't a generic plastic or concrete box like so many other arenas. The old facade was preserved. It's a handsome building from the outside.
I'll re-evaluate my opinion when I see the plaza and the big screen on the outside and everything. Maybe you're right, and the plaza will work out and it will look great from some angles. I do have to say that my issue is not with the arena itself, but the buildings surrounding it. The arena looks fine, it's that the dime-a-dozen glass buildings crowding up against it and seemingly leeching off of the arena that are the problem.

On that note, I'm not really fan of dead zones either, but I think low-rise or mid-rise buildings can fill the need of creating spaces for bars and restaurants and whatnot, while still visibly showing that the arena is the center of attention. If anyone's been to the Arena District in Columbus (another brownfield area being redeveloped), I think that that is a nice way to go. But this is all just my own opinion in the end.

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Yes there are doors on that side. And again, if that lot was turned into a plaza it would be a waste of space. That land is zoned for office use and a possible 1000 footer one day. Our fans like to go to dinner downtown, head to the game and then after hit bars and pubs. We don't like to hand out in parking lots drinking out of the trunks of our cars. It's just not part of the CDN NHL/NBA scene. That land is of far to much value to set it aside for a bunch of rowdy drunk fans that will rarely use it.
I guess my experiences at sporting events are completely different than in Toronto. For Flyers games, I usually go only on the weekends, when I don't have to work in the evenings, and I have to drive to get there since I'm almost 45 minutes away from Philly. After the game, I usually go back to Delaware and go out to the bars closer to home, but occasionally I'll stay in Philadelphia and go to one of the bar districts. Maybe Toronto has a greatly de-centralized bar scene over Philly, because few people like to go to random bars near the Sports Complex to drink if they're going out for drinks. Most go to Old City or Manayunk or Center City, or they go to the strip clubs by the airport.

I guess what also influences it is that you guys don't have the NFL, whereas Philadelphia does. So, the parking lots are needed here, since tailgating is huge (like in any big NFL market). (Tailgating has also taken off for Phillies games in the past 5 years or so.) The parking lots are needed then to serve that purpose, and they do well bringing in revenue. It's an added bonus when the Flyers and Sixers host block parties as the playoffs roll in, and the parking lots become tailgate centers and pep rally spots and so on.

So, this one will ultimately have to be chalked up as a big difference in sports culture, it looks like.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 05:26 AM   #97
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Old September 9th, 2009, 06:48 AM   #98
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Maple Leaf Square from the Gardner.

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Old September 9th, 2009, 08:59 PM   #99
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More images of the plans for Lansdowne in Ottawa!

Lansdowne Live







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Old September 10th, 2009, 04:25 AM   #100
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