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Old July 21st, 2009, 10:33 AM   #61
Capzilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hix View Post
A metro must be used for transportation within a city, not between cities...
Unless those cities are called Brussels, Etterbeek, Stockel and Anderlecht.

How about the railways between the cities of London, Westminster and Southwark?
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Old July 21st, 2009, 12:09 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capzilla View Post
Unless those cities are called Brussels, Etterbeek, Stockel and Anderlecht.
Euh, ever been in Brussels? Believe me, Etterbeek, Stockel, Anderlecht,... are all part of the Brussels urban area. It's one city.


Gedetailleerd plan (met metrolijnen): http://stib.be/irj/go/km/docs/STIB-M...90406-plan.pdf

I use the Brussels metro daily and it gives me a real big-city-feeling. For me, a real metro must be underground, btw.

I never used the Rotterdam metro but it looks like a good system with very modern stations. Like it! (I wish Antwerp had one )

Last edited by Thermo; July 21st, 2009 at 12:14 PM.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 12:43 PM   #63
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There is no problem with metro to go outside the city. Aslong as it stays mainly in the city proper. In Amsterdam only the Amstelveen sneltram line is not metro. There's no doubt about that.
Generaly you cannot compare London, New York, Tokyo, Paris systems with small cities like Rotterdam or Brussels.

For me, it's almost always very clear. I know a metro when I see one. I also know a lightrail system, a sneltram system, a RER system when I see it. There's never a confusion. Even in Berlin, where the S-Bahn (one of the best in the world) is clearly not a metro. And still, it's more metro than the Randstadrail. In San Francisco the muni metro is just a premetro system and Bart is a regional railsystem. Only the locals want to prove desperately that it's a real metro, because it makes their city more cosmopolitan...

I agree that different systems can be confusing. Is the metro of Porto a metro? No, it's not, it's a fast tram system. Is the S-tog in Copenhagen a metro? No, it's a suburban railroad. Can you have a system that is a metro aswell as a suburban railroad. Not in my opinion.

Like I said, I understand why the Dutch, and especialy the Rotterdammers want so desperately prove that this line is a metro. It makes their city more "metropolitan" , more New York as it were, and less a poldervillage. (Not that you could think that, Rotterdam is a super city with the best modern architecture in the Benelux and central Europe)

And it's so easy, converting a railroad in to a metro, is so much more easy than to build a real metro, digging tunnels in the city..... (Ask around in Amsterdam) But really if you take a light rail train from Den Haag to Pijnakker Zuid, a train that runs every 30 minutes, are you really using the Rotterdam metro? I dont think so...
Every half hour? Last time i used it on a saturday it was running every 20 minutes, because the tunnel has not yet finished. Once the tunnel is open this year it will be running every 10 minutes.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 12:49 PM   #64
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Euh, ever been in Brussels? Believe me, Etterbeek, Stockel, Anderlecht,... are all part of the Brussels urban area. It's one city.
It's just like Vlaardingen, Schiedam, Barendrecht, Capelle aan den IJssel and others are all part of Rotterdam, 1 big city.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 12:53 PM   #65
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Alright alright, Rotterdam is bigger than Brussels and has the biggest metro system in the benelux. Now ok?


Gotta love the Dutchies.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 01:10 PM   #66
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The trains run at a 15 minute interval on a saterday afternoon. The stations
Then you were very unlucky, normally the trains depart every 3 to 7 minutes.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 02:30 PM   #67
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Euh, ever been in Brussels? Believe me, Etterbeek, Stockel, Anderlecht,... are all part of the Brussels urban area. It's one city.
Of course I have. Didn't my reference to London make clear I was being overly pedantic and no longer discussing seriously?..

For what it's worth though, the official classification of the Hoekse Lijn, Randstadrail and Zevenkamp/Ommoord branches is indeed sneltram and not metro due to the level crossings.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 10:43 PM   #68
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Station Rijnhaven
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[IMG]http://i29.************/25qucjq.jpg[/IMG]
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Old July 21st, 2009, 10:51 PM   #69
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Why not stick with the definitions of the Wikipedia article? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metro_systems
metro = urban, electric passenger transportation system with high capacity and high frequency of service, which is totally independent from other traffic, road or pedestrians (grade-separated)
This excludes the sneltram sections (but not the final link from De Tochten to Nesselande) and RandstadRail.

Also, length refers to 'route' length of the network, i.e. based on the service, not actual tracks.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 11:28 PM   #70
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That definition would rule out Japanese systems, where there's a high degree of interoperability with regional railway lines.
"Length" is another troublesome definition, especially the way you define it. That would simply mean that network length would increase if a new service is implemented, even though there hasn't been any physical lengthening of the network. Though Rotterdamers and New Yorkers alike would love your definition, I doubt they would in Paris or Moscow.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 11:34 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WallyNL View Post
Also, length refers to 'route' length of the network, i.e. based on the service, not actual tracks.
No, of course not. That would be silly. The lenght of the network is the "physical" presence of the infrastructure. How you organise the lines on those tracs does not make the network bigger.
In your example the Brussels metro would be 70 km long in stead of 38.
When you compare systems you have to use the same parameters for every system. So if you count the shared tracks twice in Rotterdam, than you have to do the same for Amsterdam and Brussels.


Last edited by hix; July 21st, 2009 at 11:46 PM.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 11:53 PM   #72
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And New York's would range somewhere in the 1000's ... (km's, that is, not miles)

Then again, New York is a special case, due to its four track sections. Should one count those sections as single, or as double lines? Technically, all four track sections are operated as parallel running subway lines, the only difference being the number of stops (express trains make less stops than local ones). In theory, the local and express portions can be operated completely independent from each other, which is the case with the IRT lines (1, 2, 3 and 4, 5, 6): the 1 and 6 local trains don't share their tracks with the express 2, 3, 4 and 5 trains along any part of their route.
Intuitively, one would count the four track sections as one, though that would also have consequences for other systems where lines run parallel along a certain stretch of their route (cf. the Parisian lines 8 and 9 between Richelieu-Drouot and République, or the London District and Piccadilly lines between Ealing Common and Earl's Court).
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 12:23 AM   #73
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In my opinion you should count 4 track lines double.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 12:26 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermo
Euh, ever been in Brussels? Believe me, Etterbeek, Stockel, Anderlecht,... are all part of the Brussels urban area. It's one city.
Sorry that is not true. The city Brussels only has 140.000 inhabitants and is very small. Het Gewest Brussels (like Vlaanderen or Wallonië). It is part of the Brussels urban area, but it isn't one city.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 10:07 AM   #75
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Don't be ridiculous. We are not going to have this discussion, please don't write things you don't know anything about. It's thrue that administratively, Brussels is a special case. But the city has 1.100.000 inhabitants, the urban area has about 2.000.000 inhabitants.
Don't be such a wise-ass. The 19 communes of Brussels all are part of Brussels. I live in Molenbeek and when you sent me a letter you will write "1080 Brussels" on the evelope. Stokkel does not even exist officially, it's just a neighbourhood.

Last edited by hix; July 22nd, 2009 at 10:18 AM.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 10:35 AM   #76
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There is no problem with metro to go outside the city. Aslong as it stays mainly in the city proper.
Contradiction in terms. You mean urban area?

I'd still like some links to learn more about the Brussels metro btw. Like I said before, I don't know much about it. I've been on it, but that was years ago. All I remember is the fantastic name of our hotel's nearest subway station "Comte de Flandre"

Quote:
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But I understand that the patriotic Dutchmen desperately want to have the biggest metro of the Benelux.
Quote:
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Alright alright, Rotterdam is bigger than Brussels and has the biggest metro system in the benelux. Now ok?


Gotta love the Dutchies.
Stop being so Flemish already. Only one person here has consistently argued the Rotterdam metro is the biggest in the Benelux. Other people have simply argued against your definitions of a metro - which is a completely legitimate thing to do considering it's such a vague concept.

But, boy, you sure love your stereotypes of us, don't you? Any confirmation of those you can get, you jump on it like an eager child on Christmas day
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:04 AM   #77
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Contradiction in terms. You mean urban area?
It is not always clear what belongs to the city and what not. Administrative bounderies are not always clear on this. In the case of the randstadrail it is clear though that Den Haag is a different city. In the case of Spijkenisse it's also clear that it belongs to the Rotterdam Urban Region. The future line to Hoek van Holland is in that respect also a line within the urban region of Rotterdam and could be considered metro if it had no level crossings.

Quote:
I'd still like some links to learn more about the Brussels metro btw. Like I said before, I don't know much about it. I've been on it, but that was years ago. All I remember is the fantastic name of our hotel's nearest subway station "Comte de Flandre"
I invite you to come to Brussels, I will gladly give you a tour. In the meanwhyle check this site: http://http://metro-de-bruxelles.blogspot.com/

Quote:
Stop being so Flemish already. Only one person here has consistently argued the Rotterdam metro is the biggest in the Benelux. Other people have simply argued against your definitions of a metro - which is a completely legitimate thing to do considering it's such a vague concept.

But, boy, you sure love your stereotypes of us, don't you? Any confirmation of those you can get, you jump on it like an eager child on Christmas day
You are absolutely right. These remarks by me and by Thermo where inappropriate. I appologize.

And it's true, it's not always clear what is a metro, or what is a city BTW. In the case of Rotterdam, it can be argued that Rotterdam and The Hague are dubble cities, so close they are to each other.

I think that when Randstadrail and Hoekse lijn are completely ready Rotterdam will have a super system. I would think it's more an S-bahn than a metro, but I think if I was a Rotterdammer, I would call it a metro too.

Just the thing I like most about it is the hybrid caracter of it. It integrates full metro, sneltram and 'S-Bahn' in one system. I think we should have something simular in Brussels.

Last edited by hix; July 22nd, 2009 at 11:23 AM.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:15 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post


Stop being so Flemish already. Only one person here has consistently argued the Rotterdam metro is the biggest in the Benelux. Other people have simply argued against your definitions of a metro - which is a completely legitimate thing to do considering it's such a vague concept.

But, boy, you sure love your stereotypes of us, don't you? Any confirmation of those you can get, you jump on it like an eager child on Christmas day
Nice said!
He does the same about Brussels. Make everthing bigger as it is. Now Brussel Urban area has 2.000.000 inhabitants.
If you take the same 10 km circle around R'dam than you have 2.800.000 inhabitants. So....?
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:22 AM   #79
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Nice said!
He does the same about Brussels. Make everthing bigger as it is. Now Brussel Urban area has 2.000.000 inhabitants.
If you take the same 10 km circle around R'dam than you have 2.800.000 inhabitants. So....?
Don't be silly man.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:27 AM   #80
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It's just like Vlaardingen, Schiedam, Barendrecht, Capelle aan den IJssel and others are all part of Rotterdam, 1 big city.
Oh no, that is quite different.
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